Ick in a coldwater tank

[Fintastic32]

Hi everyone.
I've had a goldfish for almost 7 years and I recently moved him from a 15 litre tank because it was way too small for him. He's now been in a 54 litre tank for 2 months and I bought him a goldfish buddy and 4 minnows and 2 hillstream loaches and one of these most have had ICH because a couple of weeks ago he started hitting himself off the gravel and I then noticed he had white spots on his tail. I bought this medicine that is blue and it said to add 5ml per 50 litres every 4 days. I also read that if I upped the tempature it'd help speed up getting rid of it.
So increased the tempature to 24c and then for the past 2 weeks I have done a 25% water change while hovering the gravel every 4 days while adding the medicine. I don't see white spots anymore BUT my little goldfish was hitting himself off the stones last night so now I don't know if I just keep adding the medicine or stop or what?? I also read online about adding salt but I read hillstream loaches can't handle salt or temps over 24c

What can I do to get rid of the ICH without killing my fish. I don't mean anything bad by this but my number 1 fish is my 7 year old goldfish so I have to save him ahead of all others

 

[molliwopp]

Do you have a picture? Is there anything still visible on the fish in question or any of the others?

 

[Fintastic32]

I don't have pictures but I can try to get some tonight not sure if my camera will be good enough to get the detail needed. My little goldfish has red marks on his side but I think this is from when it smashes himself into the gravel. I don't see any white spots on any of the fish.

The 2 goldfish are the only ones every to show any signs of sickness but as people may know hillstream loaches are quite shy so I only see them 2 fish from time to time they spend a lot of time hiding under rocks and stuff when the lights are on so can't be 100% sure they are both ok

 

[molliwopp]

Have you tested your water for ammonia and nitrite? Red veins or marks can indicate ammonia poisoning and could also explain the thrashing. Seeing as your tank is only 2months old it might not be cycled. How often and how much water are you changing?

Edit* 25% every 2weeks isnt enough for a new tank as the bacteria that breaks down fish waste wont have had time to establish and ammonia/nitrite could be running riot.

 

[Fintastic32]

Hi Molliwopp I am doing 25% every 4 days at the moment because I do it with the medication I add so 25% twice a week. Should I do more?
When my fish were not sick I was doing 25% once a week

I don't have a testing kit but I brought a water sample to my fish shop after 6 weeks which was around 2 weeks ago and the guy said it "looked good". I don't know about ammonia and nitrite sorry!

Sorry Molliwopp I know its hard for you to say without seeing them but just to get your advice as best you can say now about the medicine do u think I would be doing harm continuing to use it for say another 2 goes or would the harm be worth it to make sure the ICH was gone?

 

[molliwopp]

I would definitely do more changes if ammonia and nitrite cant be tested. Also relying on the lfs for water testing isn't the best idea. Even if the lfs is honest, ammonia can rise within 24hrs so will obviously go undetected. Did you use the filter from your old tank in the new one as this would of helped. Can i ask what you are using for filtration?

To be honest goldfish need 30 gallons at least and then 10gallons for each additional goldfish or will be stunted. Your tank isnt big enough for your fish and their messy fish, Which will also make the water deteriate very quickly. With such a small tank, in a 54litre keeping ammonia at a safe level will be a uphill struggle.

How sure are you its ich? Ich isnt and should never be life threatening where as ammonia poisoning is. I would start changing water daily starting now.

If i can be brutally honest you should consider rehomeing some of your fish, sorry.

 

[Fintastic32]

Hi Molliwopp I understand your points and don't take offence at all. I have a Stingray 15 which came with the tank. I took out the carbon inserts and added more foam instead because I read the more foam the more bacteria the better.
I can't really get bigger tanks because I live with my partner and there was only two places she agreed I could have a tanks so I bought this 2 foot tank for under the TV and a 40cm 26 litre tank for on the fireplace. I also have spent around 300 euro on fish stuff in the past few months so I won't be getting rid of it! I always laugh when people say you need a massive tank for goldfish because my guy lived in a 15 litre unfiltered tank for almost 7 years.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me I think I will just keep doing my medicine every 4 days for now and maybe take another sample to the fish shop to check the ammonia. I don't understand why ammonia would rise if I don't change anything in the tank or add any new fish? The guy in my fish shop is really nice and helpful I don't think he is lying to me!

 

[molliwopp]

Well you used the word 'lived in an unfiltered tank' i like to use the word thrived as much as i can. Finish the meds if you must but i dont think ich is your problem.

Youve added another goldfish and minnows, fish produce ammonia through their waste and gills and this is where its come from, this will have built up over the last month to a level that is now effecting your fish and will continue to do so. As its a new tank there is no benifical bacteria to break down the waste theyre producing.

I hate to say it but its an accident waiting to happen as the filter you have is also inadequate for the fish bioload you have in the tank also. Im trying to word the situation without being to blunt but i dont think youre comprehending.

Youre tanks too small and your filter inadequate.Keeping fish is like keeping any other living creature.

 

[Fintastic32]

Ok thanks but I meant that all the fish in the tank now were present when I got the water tested two weeks ago so why would ammonia be there now if it wasn't then surely there will be more and more bacteria as the tank gets more mature....but I will get the water tested again and if there is an ammonia problem I'll do something about it.

I appreciate your time and I will certainly look into if I am barking up the wrong tree and its not Ich at all thank you very much.

 

[molliwopp]

Please dont confuse my honesty with negativity, believe it or not we're here to help you and your fish. If you have any questions or problems now or in the future dont hesitate to post.

 

[Mebbid]

Increasing the tank temperature to 75 degrees won't really do anything to help. I am in agreement that the parameters absolutely need to be tested to rule that out as goldfish are very very dirty fish. It might not just be ammonia but it could be a rises in nitrates that is causing your fish to have problems and given that you only do 2 25% water changes weekly I believe that this is going to be the case. In a tank that size I would seriously suggest increasing that to 2 50% water changes weekly as that will help with the build up of nitrogen in a tank that size.

While your goldfish has survived in a tank that size I doubt that it has truly "thrived" as was stated before. Being in a tank that is too small absolutely stunts their growth but while their body stops or slows down in growing their internal organs don't and in the end causes an early death in fish. The second reason that goldfish need such a large tank is that they are very very messy fish and need the extra water volume to keep the water at safe levels.


Lastly, the hillstream loaches need a very specific type of tank in which to be happy. They really need a species tank with extremely high flow to be happy or else they just tend to suffer. If you notice that they hang in one specific area in the tank where the flow is highest then that is exactly what is happening.

 

[Fintastic32]

Thanks Molliwopp I appreciate your help and understand your point totally. If I could start again with no fish I would never have bought a goldie nobody tells you they can get so big! But I really am very attached to my old guy. If he was to pass on I'd think about getting rid of the new goldie and just having loaches and minnows with maybe a couple of cory's.

I do have one more question I have a 26 litre tank that I have 2 guppies and 1 Albino Cory. I was wondering should I get another Albino Cory because I read they are social or would that be counter productive because of the amount of fish I already have? It's 6 gallons so one inch of fish per gallon means I have the total number of fish I should have already I think. I just don't want to make the same mistakes with my new little tank. Its been up and running 3 weeks and I started just with one guppy then added the 2nd guppy and the Albino Cory at the weekend.

 

[Fintastic32]

Thanks also Mebbid for the input.
At the end of the day my tank is set up and I am not getting rid of any fish but I take on board what you are saying about the Loaches and won't replace them if they pass on. I have to say I've had them over a month, which I know isn't a long time, and both have been active and flying around all areas of the tank although they do spend time hiding under the rocks but I appreciate I am not an expert and maybe the set up is wrong for them long term. The guy in the shop just had them in a normal tank with the goldies and all he said was add in half an algae walfer and the odd pellet to their diet and they'd be grand once the temp wasn't high he didn't mention fast water but if this is the case I might try get a faster filter? Would that help?

 

[Mebbid]

Hillstream loaches should live up to 6 years. I guess a faster filter would help.

Cory cats need at the very minimum a 10g or larger tank although many people here on the forum will say 20g is the smallest they can go in. They will also need to be in a group of at least 4 although 6 is preferred. Their lifespan should be 10 - 15 years.

The inch per gallon rule is outdated and no longer useful to follow. Go to www.aqadvisor.com to check the stocking level of your tank.

 

[molliwopp]

I would suggest 10g for pygmy cories like pandas ect and definitely 20long for peppered cories or that of the same size as they can get 3" long beefy little fish that get rather plump!

You mentioned a stronger filter pump. I would get an external if your budget allows as every little space in the tank counts. Also if you got a canister filter, you'd add 5litres to you tank volume lol.

 

[Fintastic32]

Thanks guys I think that maybe I'll leave it at 2 guppies and 1 Cory in that case for at least 2/3 months until my tank is 100% cycled and provided the 3 of them are in good health I may consider a friend..... I have a really strong filter in this one it does 400 litres per hour and I have 6 small real plants in it so I think although its small its probably got decent oxygen.
At the end of the day I know my set ups are small and certainly not ideal but I enjoy the fish so much I can't give them up. Maybe one day I'll be in a position to have massive tanks.

I looked at your link but it said I couldn't even have one guppy!! Come on guys the tank is 26 litres of course one guppy could live in it!

According to this I can have 12 inches of guppies in my tank which would mean 6 guppies so I don't believe either to be honest. My guppies are flying around the tank and so is my cory and they will only get to 1/8 the length of the tank. I think sometimes maybe people read something online and just take it as fact. Who is to say you have to have 10G for a 2.5 inch albino cory? Surely the "ideal" is in the wild so anyone that keeps fish does it for their enjoyment and provided the fish has space to swim about and the bio-load isn't making the water bad then I say its ok
http://www.howmanyfish.com/#page=page-1

 

[Mebbid]

As for the Guppy stocking, I've seen soo many different suggestions its hard for me to take a stance either way on their stocking. They are generally very active fish but dont seem to care much about tank size. I think your 6g would be okay, kind of. It seems to be less of an issue when there are no females in the tank.

 

[jlk]

The suggestions that calculator offers for stocking are completely unrealistic. For example, it states you can stock 32-33inches of full bodied adult big tropical fish in a 55g. So, based on this, you can place three 10in Oscars in a 55g or a 24in pleco and an Oscar or simply a 33in long fish of whatever species.

The coldwater suggestions are just as inaccurate. For a 55g, they state you can stock 22in of adult fish. A 22in koi is NOT going to even fit in a 55g. Even a single 12+in goldfish will have difficult time turning around in a 55g. I am honestly not sure how they came up with these suggestions but Aqadvisor atleast offers conservative stocking and compatibility suggestions based on actual adult species of fish, your exact tank size and filtration. You may want to play around with their stocking calculator then ask further questions from experienced members.

 

[Fintastic32]

Jlk I agree that the calculator I put up was crazy I'll I was saying is not everything online is a law and the other link I was given said I couldn't have one single guppy in a 26 litre tank which frankly I simply don't agree with. I have 2 male guppies and they fly around the tank not a bother and on them.

 

[Fintastic32]

Guppy tank size: How big a tank do guppies need? - Guppy Fish Care

6 guppies for a 6 gallon tank is fine guys very interesting how the link I was given said I couldn't even have one! It seems that everyone has an opinion but nobody actually can give a scientific reason for their opinion.

After reading loads of different sites and links I totally believe that 2 Corys and 2 guppies will not be too big a bio-load for my 26 litre tank especially since I've a strong filter with plenty of sponge surface area and real plants to help keep the water stable