Is my pH reasoning correct?

[bs6749]

I setup a 10 gallon tank yesterday with Eco-Complete as the substrate some java moss, and some dwarf chain sword/dwarf sag (not sure which). This tank is going to house my CRS which are arriving tomorrow. They need a slightly acidic to slightly alkaline pH according to most breeders/sites I've researched. Any pH outside the given range of 6.6-7.4 can supposedly cause pitting/discoloration/lower grades of shrimp. My problem is that my tap water has a pH of 8.0, KH of 300+ ppm, and a GH of 300+ ppm.

Yesteday, upon setting up the tank I added 5 gallons of filtered water I bought from the store which had a pH of 6.0 and obviously KH/GH was 0 ppm. I added the remaining 4-5 gallons from my tap water. I know that I shouldn't have gotten a pH of 7.0 due to the high buffering capacity but will a pH of 7.0 be possible in my situation? If I lower the KH/buffering capacity then it should be more realistic and easier to obtain a pH of 7.0-7.4 correct? And at that point, if my KH is more like 80 ppm would it then be feasible for me to use pH down to adjust the water to be slightly acidic. I know most people on here aren't for using pH adjusters but that's because it "doesn't work" when there is a high buffering capacity right? Any help/input/advice/observations would be helpful in case there is something I am overlooking. I think I am going to change 5 gallons out from my tank today and add 5 gallons of filtered water and see where that gets me. I have about 24 CRS arriving tomorrow and I need to have the tank ready!

 

[JohnPaul]

I setup a 10 gallon tank yesterday with Eco-Complete as the substrate some java moss, and some dwarf chain sword/dwarf sag (not sure which). This tank is going to house my CRS which are arriving tomorrow. They need a slightly acidic to slightly alkaline pH according to most breeders/sites I've researched. Any pH outside the given range of 6.6-7.4 can supposedly cause pitting/discoloration/lower grades of shrimp. My problem is that my tap water has a pH of 8.0, KH of 300+ ppm, and a GH of 300+ ppm.

Not to start off on a negative note, but that is about as bad a water source as possible for keeping CRS. Crystal Reds like soft, acidic water...you have hard, alkaline water.

Yesteday, upon setting up the tank I added 5 gallons of filtered water I bought from the store which had a pH of 6.0 and obviously KH/GH was 0 ppm. I added the remaining 4-5 gallons from my tap water. I know that I shouldn't have gotten a pH of 7.0 due to the high buffering capacity but will a pH of 7.0 be possible in my situation?

Possible? Maybe. Likely? No. There is so much hardness in your water, it's going to be very difficult to reach pH 7 or below using any appreciable amount of your tap water.

If I lower the KH/buffering capacity then it should be more realistic and easier to obtain a pH of 7.0-7.4 correct?

The more you reduce kH, yes, the easier it will be to adjust the pH down.

And at that point, if my KH is more like 80 ppm would it then be feasible for me to use pH down to adjust the water to be slightly acidic.

This is fraught with problems. Even 80 ppm kH will give you a surprising amount of buffering. It is still going to be difficult to get significant pH adjustments--are far MORE difficult to keep your pH stable once you've made those adjustments.

I know most people on here aren't for using pH adjusters but that's because it "doesn't work" when there is a high buffering capacity right?

Not really. The big reason we discourage it so much is because chemically altering your pH leads to large pH swings--which can shock fish pretty badly. Plus the fact that it's not only the pH that is significant; CRS need not only low pH (below 7.0 ideally), but also need reasonably soft water (not just kH but more significantly, low GH). Chemical additives like "pH down" may be able to adjust pH, but they aren't doing anything to lower the GH, which is equally important. You can have the most acidic water in the world but if you still have a sky-high GH, your CRS aren't going to do well.

Thus when someone wants to create conditions right for soft/acidic water fish or shrimps, it is best done naturally--by using ADA Aquasoil as the substrate, some driftwood in the tank, and lots of peat in your filter. All of these things (especially the Aquasoil and the peat) not only will lower the pH, but they will also "aborb" some of the hardness in your water, making the water more soft.

Given your tap water as it is now, you're basically in a catch-22. With a high kH, it is simply impossible to adjust the pH significantly (by any means whatsoever--chemicals, peat, you name it). So you need to drastically lower the kH just to be able to have a fighting chance to adjust the pH to where you want it. However, when you lower the kH that drastically, you have very little carbonate left to buffer your system--which means the slightest thing can lead to quite massive pH swings.

The net result is your tank is always going to be on the knife's edge. One small miscalculation, and you will possibly get a massive pH spike (or dip) that will cause a complete tank crash and you'll lose everything.

Any help/input/advice/observations would be helpful in case there is something I am overlooking. I think I am going to change 5 gallons out from my tank today and add 5 gallons of filtered water and see where that gets me. I have about 24 CRS arriving tomorrow and I need to have the tank ready!

Basically, if you are seriously about keeping CRS and wanting to see them healthy, breeding, etc., you need to abandon the idea of using any of your own tap water. It's just not going to work. You'll need to rely on bottled spring water (not distilled/deionized...you want the low-levels of trace nutriets and minerals that spring water has). Ideally you'd want ADA but if your CRS are arriving tomorrow that's basically out of the question. You'll want to get your hands on some peat and be sure you have a big chunk of peat in your filter to try help keep the water buffered at an acidic pH. If you can keep the water reasonably soft and acidic, you'll be in great shape.

 

[bs6749]

Not to start off on a negative note, but that is about as bad a water source as possible for keeping CRS. Crystal Reds like soft, acidic water...you have hard, alkaline water.

I realize that my water is bad and that's why I mixed it with the filtered water. It's only $.30/gallon so that's not a big deal at all. I knew I shouldn't go with 100% pure water though, since I'd have little to no buffering capacity (don't know if Eco-Complete would add any). I've heard that the "optimal range" for CRS is 6.6-7.4 and I hope to be about neutral (at worst) to slightly acidic.

Possible? Maybe. Likely? No. There is so much hardness in your water, it's going to be very difficult to reach pH 7 or below using any appreciable amount of your tap water.

I was hoping to dilute the KH/GH by diluting my tap water with filtered water. I've also heard that boiling will decrease the KH dramatically, but I was wondering if it would come back over time? I'm assuming that it wouldn't to any serious degree. What do you think?

This is fraught with problems. Even 80 ppm kH will give you a surprising amount of buffering. It is still going to be difficult to get significant pH adjustments--are far MORE difficult to keep your pH stable once you've made those adjustments.

What I am hoping to do is find the sweet spot where I can have an acidic pH with a buffering capacity that will prevent pH swings even if that means having a KH under 50 ppm or WHATEVER that number may be. I plan to use the filtered water as the main part of the tanks water and add tap water to provide the KH level that I need. Do you have any ideal of what number (KH) would allow me to obtain the results that I am looking for?

Not really. The big reason we discourage it so much is because chemically altering your pH leads to large pH swings--which can shock fish pretty badly. Plus the fact that it's not only the pH that is significant; CRS need not only low pH (below 7.0 ideally), but also need reasonably soft water (not just kH but more significantly, low GH). Chemical additives like "pH down" may be able to adjust pH, but they aren't doing anything to lower the GH, which is equally important. You can have the most acidic water in the world but if you still have a sky-high GH, your CRS aren't going to do well.

I understand what you are saying but I'm hoping to have enough buffering capacity to avoid those swings. I also understand that they need soft water which is also why I am planning on using filtered water and adding tap water to achieve 75-100 ppm GH.

Thus when someone wants to create conditions right for soft/acidic water fish or shrimps, it is best done naturally--by using ADA Aquasoil as the substrate, some driftwood in the tank, and lots of peat in your filter. All of these things (especially the Aquasoil and the peat) not only will lower the pH, but they will also "aborb" some of the hardness in your water, making the water more soft.

I was thinking about using Aquasoil but didn't see any locally and didn't want to order any. I chose the Eco-Complete instead but maybe I SHOULD get the ADA stuff. I have driftwood, but not in the tank. I don't like how the tannins turn the water brown and I haven't noticed it decreasing the pH in the tank, most likely due to the high buffering capacity present. All I plan on running for filtration is a sponge filter for now. I know I'll need to stay on top of the water changes and gravel vacuuming.

Given your tap water as it is now, you're basically in a catch-22. With a high kH, it is simply impossible to adjust the pH significantly (by any means whatsoever--chemicals, peat, you name it). So you need to drastically lower the kH just to be able to have a fighting chance to adjust the pH to where you want it. However, when you lower the kH that drastically, you have very little carbonate left to buffer your system--which means the slightest thing can lead to quite massive pH swings.

Looks like you and I both are aware of how impossible this "sweet spot" is going to be to find.

The net result is your tank is always going to be on the knife's edge. One small miscalculation, and you will possibly get a massive pH spike (or dip) that will cause a complete tank crash and you'll lose everything.

I know what you are saying, and that sucks for me. I guess I may have to shoot for a neutral at best pH unless I get the ADA Aquasoil. Do you have any experience with it? Does it work well and will it maintain the pH I am hoping for all by itself?

Basically, if you are seriously about keeping CRS and wanting to see them healthy, breeding, etc., you need to abandon the idea of using any of your own tap water. It's just not going to work. You'll need to rely on bottled spring water (not distilled/deionized...you want the low-levels of trace nutriets and minerals that spring water has). Ideally you'd want ADA but if your CRS are arriving tomorrow that's basically out of the question. You'll want to get your hands on some peat and be sure you have a big chunk of peat in your filter to try help keep the water buffered at an acidic pH. If you can keep the water reasonably soft and acidic, you'll be in great shape.

I'm definitely serious about keeping them and breeding them. I have no problem using filtered water and I can easily change out 3-4 gallons per week. I have several HOB filters but they are small and wouldn't allow a big chunk to fit in the tank. My best bet sounds like ADA Aquasoil. Would I be able to mix it with my Eco-Complete or would they counteract one another? I'm hoping I may just be able to add a 3 liter bag of Aquasoil to the tank. Also, do I want Amazonia or Amazonia II? Thanks for all your help and confirmations.

 

[Purrbox]

JohnPaul has given you some great information on why it's not a good idea to use pH adjusting chemicals.

Your best alternative would be to purchase a RO Unit and then either mix some to of the waste water or something like RO Right with the RO water to get the desired parameters. This will give you repeatable results with your water and you won't have to rely on an outside source for water which may not be monitoring their machine very closely.

With shrimp it is very important to have their aquarium established before adding them. Unfortunately 2 days is not enough time, and you've run into one of the reasons why. I'd make sure to add lots of fast growing stem plants to help give the shrimp a better chance to survive the situation. Wisteria or Guppy Grass would be a couple of great options.

 

[bs6749]

I think I will get the filtered water from the store. I don't want to spend the $100+ on an RO system and I don't want to have to run water lines to the basement for the RO unit, which is the only place I'd be able to keep the water in a barrel. The units that hook up to the tap are too slow and if I'm going to spend the money on an RO unit, I'm going to get one that will produce 30 or so gallons per day and use that for my discus as well.

I know what you are saying about the outside water source but it's in a large "mini-chain" store comparable to Wal-Mart in store size, not number of stores though. I always see people using the water and I'm sure it's check on regularly.

Are worried about the tank not being cycled? There should be lots of beneficial bacteria present in the Eco-Complete, and on the plants I put in yesterday. I can always swap the sponge filter out for the one in my angelfish tank that is seeded. I'm not worried about ammonia spikes or anything. 24 or so shrimp shouldn't produce much waste. I can and will change 2-3 gallons of water per day if necessary until that tank is "cycled".

Does anyone have any exeperience with Prime and shrimp? I've heard of breeders using Amquel+ and something else. Seems like Prime would be safe but I want to make sure. Best to dose it dropwise I'm assuming.

 

[bs6749]

Just changed out 8 gallons of water in my tank and I added 8 gallons of filter water. I checked the pH and got 6.4, KH was 40+ ppm and GH was 50 ppm. Too low on the GH? I think that's about where I want it, right? I know the pH may change so I'll check tonight and post back the params in about 9-10 hours.

 

[Purrbox]

I've specifically heard of a improperly maintained RO unit (if memory serves it was a large grocery store chain) which wiped out an aquarium because the filters hadn't been changed when needed. If you insist on using the store's water, definately do your own testing to ensure that the water is safe. Especially if you purchased higher grade CRS.

It's not just about the cycle (although that is a large part of it) when talking about using an established aquarium. There are a lot of issues besides just cycling that are generally only encountered in the first few months that an aquarium is setup. Since you are using plants transplanted from your other aquariums and can use an established sponge filter it will put you several steps ahead, but is not the same as using an established aquarium.

I'm using Prime with my RCS and haven't had the least bit of problems. I double dose because of higher Ammonia levels in my tap water too. Of course CRS are much more sensitive than RCS, so RCS aren't always the best gage for how other shrimp will do under the same circumstances. That being said, I would be VERY surprised if Prime did cause your CRS any issues.

 

[bs6749]

That really stinks about the aquarium being wiped from not changing filters. Do you remember what was killed and what do you think the cause was? I WILL test the water before adding it to the tank. I can test for ammonia/nitrites/nitrates and pH with my API kit but should I also be checking KH/GH? Is there a handheld device that measures BOTH KH and GH or do they just measure GH generally? How much are they if there is a combo one? I've been thinking about getting a meter for my aquariums to measure the hardness but don't know what meter to get.

I have used Prime with my RCS too. I put in too much for the 10 gallon tank (probably 5 times the dosage recommended) and it killed off lots of the shrimp, especially the larger ones.

 

[Purrbox]

It's been a long time since I read the post, so I'm not absolutely sure, but I think it was high Ammonia levels. Again, it's been long enough that I really don't remember. I would make sure to test for all the common variables - Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, KH, GH. Depending on how filtered the water is (ie how low the KH is) the pH value may be meaningless, which is why I recommended just testing the KH and not the pH.

 

[bs6749]

I just checked my water params. Today my KH was 80 ppm, yesterday it was 40 ppm. Could this have come from air through the sponge filter? Today my GH was 75 ppm, yesterday it was 50ish. Is it possible that some of the slate I had in there precipitated out into the water? That's the only explaination I have that can account for that increase. I took it out nevertheless. I know beyond a certain point (the equilibrium point) slate wouldn't precipitate anymore so the GH wouldn't continually increase from the slate.

I used API pH Down to get the pH back to 7.0 after it rose to 7.4 and hopefully I'll be able to maintain it at this level on a day-to-day basis until I get the ADA Amazonia substrate. They seem to be out of stock on every type I want. Any thoughts? Also, if the Amazonia substrate maintains the pH between 5.5-6.5 is it going to be difficult to acclimate such "fragile" shrimp to these conditions if my pH increases and stays at 7.4, which is the highest I hope it goes. If it doesn't get higher than 7.4 for me I won't even bother trying to adjust the pH.

 

[Purrbox]

Do not, I repeat, do not use pH Down to adjust your pH. This will just make a mess of things. It will result in bouncing pH from continual dosing or if it overcomes your KH then your pH will plummet without a buffer. This is an extremely bad situation to subject shrimp to.

Most likely suspects for increasing your KH and GH would be the substrate and/or rocks in the aquarium. You'll want to rule each one out. Taking some water, testing for GH/KH, adding the substrate or rocks, letting it sit for a few days, then retesting will tell you if it's the culprit.

 

[bs6749]

Well, I got my CRS and CBS (22 CRS and 3 CBS) and they have been in my tank for about 2.5 hours. So far everything seems good. They are swimming around the tank, picking at the gravel and are even eating a little of the cyclops granules I put in the tank for them. Seems like they are happy for now. I can't wait until I can get them some ADA Amazonia so that I will feel comfortable not checking on them every 10 minutes LOL. Kinda fun to look at though. Much more pleasing to the eye than RCS in my opinion.

 

[dskidmore]

I always see people using the water and I'm sure it's check on regularly.

If you get a TDS meter you'll know. The water is entirely drinkable at higher disolved solids than you want for your tank. The average consumer would not notice the degrading filters before they got changed at the regular maintence cycle. This would be a much smaller investment than your own RO system.

The machine I used to use at wal-mart had a sticker on it with recent TDS test results. I forget how often they checked. The numbers were always slightly off from ideal, but acceptable for my needs. (I wasn't trying to keep a reef or anything.)

 

[bs6749]

Yeah, I'm sure a TDS meter is in my near future. Don't want them to die on me for something that could have been avoided.

 

[marchmaxima]

Interesting thread! I have nothing to add, but I just learned a lot from reading it.

 

[bs6749]

I heard back from the seller where I got my CRS from and he told me the following were his water parameters:

temp: 76
pH: 6.5
GH: 6
TDS: 280 ppm

I don't think my params are too far off and I'm not going to bother adjusting the pH. Hopefully they'll be fine until I can get the other substrate ordered.

 

[An t-iasg]

I think it's a good idea that you are getting the ADA substrate. When I first set up a tank with Eco Complete, I remember that my GH and KH increased about 4-5 degrees over my tap water parameters. I didn't mind the higher KH since I use pressurized CO2. My GH-KH increase lasted for about 10 months, and then I had to supplement with a buffer. I'm sure you don't want to try to counter the effects of the Eco Complete's mineral content for that long. Just be sure to watch carefully until you can remove the Eco.

I like Eco; it is a great substrate. But since you don't have time to allow the mineral levels to naturally dissipate, you should probably change it out.

Here is a pop-up from the CaribSea website: It does caution about sensitive animals.

htthttp://www.caribsea.com/pages/pop_up_window/planted/faq/faq_planted_eco_complete_planted.htmlp://