It was a fun three days... <sigh>

[revhtree]

Tossing a new fish already obviously stressed into some rubbermaid container full of fresh salt water just seems to go against common sense. Alk/Ph/Salinity/Temp all would have to be right on

Of course you would match these up as close as possible.......

There are many different beliefs, but once you got it, you got it. Ich can kill if not treated. It is a choice you will have to make...

 

[steve-s]

How long will he stay in QT and what is the preferred treatment?

A 20 gal long or larger if you can afford it would be better but not a 10 gal. Treatment time will depend on what you choose, personally I would highly recommend hyposalinity. The treatment period is longer (4 weeks) but it is the least stressful to the fish and you can more easily control water quality issues. You just need to monitor alk/pH very closely and test daily as well as salinity levels. Copper will require 14-21 days depending on which type you get, Cupramine being the more prefered.

In either case though, be sure the main tank is fallowed of any fish for 6-8 weeks and the fish is monitored in the QT for at least two weeks after treatment to ensure it was successful and no secondary infections have developed.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

This brings me back to my questions about ich in general. If it always lives in my tank and none of my other fish have it, does the fact that a fish comes down with it mean they all will? The theory is his immune system is weakened but the others are not.

An otherwise healthy fish does have the ability to fight of the parasite better than an ailing or stessed fish but any kind of immunity is generally short lived. The higher the theront level becomes with each new lifecycle, the more likely the healthy fish will succumb. The problem with that is the fish is still a carrier.

It there any level of immunity fish develop from prior cases?

Most definately but again, it is typically shorted lived and re-occurances are easily triggered. The fish will have needed to come in contact with it previously as well.

Is it that a fish succumbing increases the level of attack they are resisting normally and that starts a domino effect?

If I understand what you mean, kinda sorta. The more fish that become infested or the more even a single fish becomes infested means that many more theronts are released at each new turn of the lifecycle. Once C. irritans is in a tank, the only means of being rid of it is fallowing the tank and treating all the fish wether they look infested or not.

Also, is the cleaner shrimp picking off the actual parasites when he's working?

The shrimp does not actually target the parasite. It grabs whatever it can pull off easily. Body slime, scales and so on. The shrimp cannot actually deal with the ones that have burrowed into the epithelium and not all of the trophonts are going to grow to a size where the shrimp will even notice them. At the very best, all it will do is create a kind of equilibrium where the parasite and fish co-exist. The parasite will remain which makes absolutely no sense. It is easily killed of via treatment and ensuring all new additions are introduced via QT, the chances of it occuring again are vitually eliminated.

I sure hope he's not a desperately hungry fish. He's had a few inches of seaweed in the tank for two out of the four days (eaten entirely), does lots of picking among the rocks and has eaten well during the feedings. To add to the paranoia, how does one draw a line between underfeeding and overfeeding?

Angels and most other fish species need much more than seaweed to thrive. All fish need a balanced diet. The seaweed should be used as a grazing food, not a main meal especially for a large angel species. They still require meats and other natural food sources. I would suggest one to two strips of algae sheets daily and then some sort of frozen angel food preparation every second day. Ocean Nutrition products are quite excellent. You can also make your own blender mush.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

I'm really starting to wonder what I'm going to do overall now. The advice I'm getting mostly overlaps (with various differences in details), but overall it points to QT. I can accept that. What I'm not sure about, though, is how I'm going to put five fish in a 20 gallon tank and keep it workable for a month or two months.

These five fish fit decently in a 90 gallon tank together... but wouldn't cramming them all together in a 20 gallon with medications and hyposalinity just stress them insanely? I'm not sure I could even make enough hiding places for them in that space to matter. Then there is the bio-load on a small filtration setup...

That's based on making my tank fallow for 6 - 8 weeks (which, incidentally, is going to run right into going out of town for a week and a few days and already needing someone to keep an eye on things... not sure they will cope with these added requirements and I hate the throught of re-introduction just before I leave).

I'm thinking the most feasible thing for me to pull off is QT for the angel with treatment, maybe reducing the salinity in the main tank slowly and watching everyone. Of course, the prediction here is that he'd just get ich again upon return to the main (even if the others do not and assuming he survives) or everyone is going to come down with it soon regardless.

Of course, I've read about 100 posts on the topic in various places around the web and that gives me at least 90 different suggested methods, all of which have been a proven success for somebody at some point.

I'm not griping about any of the advice here... I really need it and I appreciate it (so please keep it coming), but I'm trying to find that workable solution and/or answer some of the questions in my head as I sort it all out.

I feel like every hour I spend weighing options (and/or having to do just normal things with life like work) is an hour closer to a tank crash or some other disaster. On the other hand, rushing out the door and throwing something together could be just as bad if I don't think it through.

I'm not giving up here... just going through that window of irritation I suspect we all feel when it's going so well and then suddenly goes south when you least expect it.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

What is in the tank other than fish, LR and the mobile inverts?

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

Steve-S,

Thanks for the point by point clarifications on my earlier ich questions. That helps fill in some blanks for me.

I need to clarify on the feeding comments I made: The seaweed I was talking about was in there for grazing above and beyond the feeding. He's been eating good amounts of at least two Ocean Nutrition foods. Some Angel Foruma and some Formula Two each night. So I'm definitely not saying seaweed was his diet... I saw it as an ongoing source in addition to grazing on the rock AND the daily normal feedings for the core diet.

Also, assuming ich was in my tank already (but not appearing on my fish whatsoever prior to his introduction)... would his outbreak to this extent in this short timeframe be unusual? Was he likely carrying it or succumbing to what existed in my tank already? Again, 1:30 AM the prior night and I see no signs at all. End of the next day (so, I suspect earlier but not when I was looking in the tank) and he's positively covered. It was like somebody flipped a switch.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Heh - we seem to be responding to each other rapid-fire, so I suspect I'm going to overlap on some pre-answered questions here. Sorry if it's a bit disjointed.

The tank is currently a Double Saddle Butterfly (about 3"), a small Scopas Tang (1.5" or so), and two small paired Percula Clowns (1.5" or so in length). The problem child is the 4" Imperator. So far as I can tell this morning, nobody else appears infected. They certainly didn't last night. I'll be checking again in a bit.

Anyway - everybody seems to have room in 90 gallons with rock... but a 20 gallon QT?

- Aaron

 

[amahler]

In addition to the above, the inverts are a bunch of little tiny Scarlet Hermits who keep busy constantly and one cleaner shrimp (extensively discussed and photographed in other posts).

There is about 90 pounds of live rock in this tank (some in the sump, the rest in the display).

- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

Also, assuming ich was in my tank already (but not appearing on my fish whatsoever prior to his introduction)... would his outbreak to this extent in this short timeframe be unusual?

Yes. Once a new fish is introduced, the parasite becomes even more active. Either the angel introduced it (more likely) or the other fish had it (less likely) but where not exhibiting signs. Once the equilibrium of the tank is disturbed, the little pests spur to action like there's no tomorrow.

Was he likely carrying it or succumbing to what existed in my tank already? Again, 1:30 AM the prior night and I see now signs at all. End of the next day (so, I suspect earlier but not when I was looking in the tank) and he's positively covered. It was like somebody flipped a switch.

The parsite has about a 5-7 day life on the fish itself, sometimes shorter depending on environment and temperature. The problem is you have no way of knowing how long when you aquire the animal. It can appear rather quick to us when in fact it's simpley part and parcel of it's life cycle. Add to that most LFS use at least some level of copper in their fish systems to keep parasites at bay. Unfortunately it is rarely high enough to be effective and the fish is usually not in the treatment long enough to erradicate it. Once added to a more appropriate environment, they quickly multiply.

If only a few survived to enter your system, it can be unseen for the first few life cycles do to low theront density then boom. It only takes one of the little PITA's to make a mountain of a mole hill.

Please read...
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

In addition to the above, the inverts are a bunch of little tiny Scarlet Hermits who keep busy constantly and one cleaner shrimp (extensively discussed and photographed in other posts).

If a QT becomes out of the question, I would suggest hyposalinity in the main tank. You would need to remove ½ the rock and all the inverts. The only thing that will survive is the fish and bacteria for the most part. The removed rock will need to be QT'd in a bucket or bin with a powerhead and heater for about 2 months. The inverts are not carriers but they will not survive the hyposalinity process. Either back to the LFS or a makeshift holding tank.

I would still suggest you get the proper equipment for a basic QT. As you can see, the choice would have been moot. One fish treated as apposed to all this hassle.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

QT is definitely not out of the question to some extent... I'm just not sure how I can QT everything right now.

I also think I'll have no support from the LFS.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll do what I can and try to deal with the problem.

- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Here's a thought...

If I could swing two 20 gallon QT tanks with sponge filters, would that be adequate for splitting up this collection of fish and pulling them all from the main tank? Say the Angel and the Scopas in one and the Butterfly and the Clowns in the other?

I could maybe seed the two 20's with 10 gallons of water each each from the main tank for starters (and just put 20 gallons of new water in the main like I do for my water changes anyway).

I'd leave the hermits, LR and shrimp in the main tank.

I'm already doing a slow bio-ball removal from the main tank anyway... so would it help to move a few of those bio-balls over to the QT tanks in some manner for seeding or is a 50/50 mix on new water and existing water ok for that (it'd be like a 50% water change initially)?

Also, if the main tank of this size just had rock and these inverts.... would the main tank remain stable? If I gave it six or eight weeks would the ich go through its cycle? What other changes would I be free to address during this period of no fish in the main tank? Possibly take this chance to swap the CC substrate that has been here for years with something else?

Would it be safe to work on adding some new inverts, mushrooms, etc., in this time since I suspect I could get my nitrates down even faster with no bio-load... or would my bacteria be dying off with the lack of a bio-load?

Just another thing to ponder as I try to turn this hassle into some kind of benefit in the long term...

- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Oh, and I meant to mention in the prior post... if I did two two 20 gallon QT's (more for cost and for the ability to keep the fish separated in a manageable grouping vs. tank size) - what is the best treatement to use in the QTs?

Hyposalinity AND cupramine? Are there brands I am likely to find at my LFS you could suggest?

- Aaron

 

[quarryshark]

Or you could do what I did a while back. Below is a pick of my 40 gallon qt tank when I had to treat 11 fish. With the use of an overflow, return pump and your basic 40 gallon garbage can I was able to almost double the water volume. The was a huge help in keeping good water quality.
HTH

Both hypo and cupramine are great treatment, but definately NOT at the same time. Way too much for the fish.
I prefer hypo, but a refractometer is needed to do it right.

 

[amahler]

I hate this.

Ich up the wazoo last night. Plenty this morning. As of this evening, virtually none if any and the other fish remain clean.

I imagine it's going to return?

- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Ok. I take that back - he's still covered. The lighting got me (I think).

Whatever the case, I went to my only three pet stores in town (only one of which has any marine specialization) and they all looked at me funny when I asked for Cupramine. Not a single place had heard of it, nor did they stock it.

All I could find were one or maybe two Ich treatment that were chelated copper and one of the formaline medicines.

So, QT building or no, I've got nothing to treat with yet. I guess I have to order online? If so, it'll be next week before I've got it depending on my shipping options.

How would you deal with this dilemma?

- Aaron

P.S. I'd still like feedback on the idea of two 20 gallons to separate the fish into compatible groups (size mostly). I'm preferring tanks to opaque containers for the moment because it seems I'd be able to observe their condition and ich better than overhead. Thoughts?

 

[badfish]

I know petsolutions.com has it, i think, if you order by thursday early enough it may come by saturday, i live in NY, and i beleive they are in Ohio, i ordered from then once and got it in two days. If you put this in the suggestions, or phone order it, they can probably send it out first thing tommorow.

I agree with using tanks to containers for better observation. I guess two 20's would work, or you could probably go with a 40 breeder to cut down your costs of an extra heater, and filters. At least put a sponge in your sump to build up bacteria. You can at least set up the tanks while you wait for meds. You might as well order the seachem copper test kit, cuz your LFS will not likely have that. I hear you when your LFS Said "CUPRAMIN?" 2-3 of mine never heard of it, the one did, and he had it, and agrees it is some of the best ich treatment out there.

Good luck, i hope you cure it, and listen to Steve-S, he knows his stuff, and is on top of posts all the time. And move all your fish, keep us posted, and keep the Good Pics Coming, I WANT A NEW CAMERA.

 

[badfish]

shipping scheduale

Pet Solutions Shipping Scheduale

https://www.petsolutions.com/Article.aspx?id=4

If you order by 10:30 AM Thursday, it will ship Thursday, that should put it at your door in two days, according to the map. I would order it ASAP, they are really good in my experience.

HTH.

 

[amahler]

Thanks, Badfish. I appreciate you checking on that. I'll go give it a look.

I definitely plan to follow Steve-S's guidelines - I'm starting right now, actually.

Also, my thinking on the pair of 20's is this:

- I think even 40 might be a little tight for this group, especially with the large and fairly dominant Imperator at the heart of my problem.

- A 20 might be tight for him, of course, but he could be alone or with the least likely fish to have issues with him. I just keep thinking the good nature of the other fish and their ability to get along so well currently is more likely to carry over to two smaller groups in smaller tanks separate from one another than all piled in together under especially stressful conditions.

- Beyond this large quarantine, having the ability to fire up one 20 gallon for a future QT tank seems more feasible for small livestock additions than maintaining a 40 or larger.

- I think I can throw together a dormant 20 for emergency QT in the future easier than a larger tank. 20 gallons drained off my main tank is a standard water change for me and could be the source water for setting up the QT in a hurry. Replacement water then goes into the main tank and smaller new batches are mixed to maintain the QT.

- My choices locally are limited. I can buy two 20's and a couple of cheap HOB filters for the cost of a "20 starter kit" or most of the other larger tanks I saw for sale in the local stores.

Granted, I realize the smaller the tank the more water changing maintenance. For special cases like this (and I hope they stay special and don't become routine), I think I can swing it.

Realistically, what will the water changing regimen be for a 20 QT under the circumstances I describe?

I am planning on order a couple of bottles of Cupramine, the Ammonia Alert (one for each tank), and the SeaChem Copper test kit. Other items?

Again, my reasoning may be flawed, so I'd appreciate any counter arguments to my thinking here.

Thanks, folks!
- Aaron

 

[revhtree]

Well water changes for the 20 or even 40 using cupramine are going to almost be daily until the treatment is over and then after that you'll have to do one every 2 days or so. Towards the end of the qt the tank will start to catch up biologically... :?

Hypo will still be a tough regiment of changes, but not as bad as the copper. On the other hand copper is alot easier to do then hypo, then again hypo is better for the fish, and so on, and so on, so on. Either way, its not a walk in the park, but if done right your fish will be A OK!