i've got it bad!--- the great excel disaster

[WaterPond]

no, no sensitive plants, and i can't remove the fish.

 

[JDogg]

no, no sensitive plants, and i can't remove the fish.

well i am 90% sure you will be alright, but after my last battle with BBA i am gun shy...so the choice is yours

 

[WaterPond]

ok, well, i'me going to do it right now then. I will just shake my plants out ofter i dip them.

 

[JDogg]

ok, well, i'me going to do it right now then. I will just shake my plants out ofter i dip them.

good luck and keep me informed as to your results

 

[WaterPond]

i did it, no immediate results of cousre, i will keep you posted.

 

[WaterPond]

ok, so i woke up this morning and my l. repens rubin turned light grey in colour, my favorite plant too.

hygro polysperma is not looking good either, alot of the green has gone from it and it is kinsof greyish looking too.

My lilacina has lots its pink colouration too, it has blotches of green all over it now.

My moss and anubias are the only things that looks the same.

The water is REALLY cloudy this morning too. co2 readings are still around 30ppm so that is good.

All the other params are good too, the same as they were lat week when i fist posted this thread(see top of page for params)

I dipped the plants then shook them let them site out of water for a few minutes to drip the rest off then placed them back. Anything else i should have done?

I'm freekin out

 

[Zezmo]

A pure Excel dip can burn a lot of plants. If you left them "dipping" for more than a few seconds (15-30 maybe?), then some of the plants tissues may be damaged. If they do not die outright, then they should spring back. The algae is certainly dead though.

I use Excel dipping mostly for wood/rocks. For BBA on plants, one highly recomended method is to use an eyedropper to squirt Excel directly on the algae, in the tank. You turn off all circulation, and do not use more than twice the recomended dosage at one time. This can be repeated every 2-3 days.
Once the algae is dead, dose the Excel at the recomended doseage every 2-3 days. This will keep algae at bay until your CO2/Fert balance issues are sorted out. Or, you can just always dose it as a safety net against algae. To be clear, Excel is not an algae killer, it is a Carbon supplement. It's algae fighting properties are a bonus.

I know this infor comes a bit late, as you have already dipped. HTH for next time though.

 

[WaterPond]

oh well, all of my lower light plants and mosses are still ok. I hope the rest spring back though. Thanks for your help, and i will definetley use that meathod next time.

 

[WaterPond]

This morning one of my amano shrimp died, water was barely see through. I dicided to move the fish out for a while. The water was pure white. I miss my shrimpy

well, came home from school today, alot of the plants had turned to mush and smelled very bad. ALot of them covered the bottom of the tank.

Here is my plant death toll(i hope they come back, they have been moved to sa seperate tank for a bit.
-lilacina
-crypts(3 kinds)
-java fern
-java moss(all of it )
-bacopa of some sort
-five small amazon swords
I beleive that is it.

Here are th survivors
- three stems of moneywort
-glosso(thank god it had no algea on it)
-anubias nana
-2 types of hydrocotyle
-and a small crypt of some sort

So far i have lost only one shrimp(amano, my favorite)
My dwarf pufferfish is ok and so are my otos.

NitrAte went WAY UP, I beleive it was at 80ppm

NitrIte-0ppm

Hardness-(usually is about 25-50ppm) it went up to 300ppm

KH-180ppm

pH- 7.5

So, my tank is looking rather empty. The fish are safely in my 10gal(the DP is in a breeder net) I am thinking i will buy a divider so he can have some more swimming space while i get this straightened out.

 

[JDogg]

This morning one of my amano shrimp died, water was barely see through. I dicided to move the fish out for a while. The water was pure white. I miss my shrimpy

well, came home from school today, alot of the plants had turned to mush and smelled very bad. ALot of them covered the bottom of the tank.

Here is my plant death toll(i hope they come back, they have been moved to sa seperate tank for a bit.
-lilacina
-crypts(3 kinds)
-java fern
-java moss(all of it )
-bacopa of some sort
-five small amazon swords
I beleive that is it.

Here are th survivors
- three stems of moneywort
-glosso(thank god it had no algea on it)
-anubias nana
-2 types of hydrocotyle
-and a small crypt of some sort

So far i have lost only one shrimp(amano, my favorite)
My dwarf pufferfish is ok and so are my otos.

NitrAte went WAY UP, I beleive it was at 80ppm

NitrIte-0ppm

Hardness-(usually is about 25-50ppm) it went up to 300ppm

KH-180ppm

pH- 7.5

So, my tank is looking rather empty. The fish are safely in my 10gal(the DP is in a breeder net) I am thinking i will buy a divider so he can have some more swimming space while i get this straightened out.

Oh My GOD!!! all that from just a dip

good to see you got the Otos and DP out, sorry about your shrimp...

some of those plants (like the crypts) might bounce back

 

[WaterPond]

the crypts a are looking ok, just a little melty, they will go back in after i see that they will not totally melt, but even if they do they might bounce back.

everything else is mush, i trimmed the dead leaves off and kept the roots(i didnt dip the roots). Some might spring back, but now i can fit in more plants, my LFS just got dwarf hairgrass, definately want some of that!

I hate how this went. The excel is now perminantely on the shelf, i will never use it again!

After a 80% water change the water is still very cloudy and readings a little better but not that much. I will wait until next weekend to add the fish back. I will do a 30% water change every day if i have to.

Any further suggestions?

 

[JDogg]

the crypts a are looking ok, just a little melty, they will go back in after i see that they will not totally melt, but even if they do they might bounce back.

everything else is mush, i trimmed the dead leaves off and kept the roots(i didnt dip the roots). Some might spring back, but now i can fit in more plants, my LFS just got dwarf hairgrass, definately want some of that!

I hate how this went. The excel is now perminantely on the shelf, i will never use it again!

After a 80% water change the water is still very cloudy and readings a little better but not that much. I will wait until next weekend to add the fish back. I will do a 30% water change every day if i have to.

Any further suggestions?

let me know how things look in a few day, i might be ready for a trim by early next week, maybe i can send you a few clipping to help you get back up and running.

 

[WaterPond]

nah, i live in canada, shipping would be too much. I have had some offers already but i hate taking "charity" from people(well, besides mr funktastic LMAO)

Thanks so much for the offer though, i appreciate it very very much.

I will let you know how things go.

Oh, and bad news, my dwarf puffer isn't doing that great :? i'm nervous

 

[Purrbox]

Unfortunately you have experienced the reason why the manufacturer has a warning on the label not to exceed recommended dosing. At high levels Excel can and will kill. This can be used to our advantage with slight overdosing (2-3 times recommended) as it generally kills the algae without harming the plants or fish. However at higher levels sensitive fish and plants will be harmed, and at really high levels you could wipe out an entire tank.

Normally when doing dips (Bleach, Potassium Permanganate, etc) the chemical is diluted in water to minimize the risk of harming the plants. Often the plants are rinsed in dechlorinated water to stop the chemicals from continuing to work. I believe in your situation you didn't dilute the Excel or rinse the plant afterwords. Most likely doing one or the other probably would have helped to prevent the current problems.

The closest thing that I've heard of to an Excel dip before this was brushing Excel directly onto the leaves of an Anubias. While the Excel is not diluted in this situation, a very small amount is used which will dilute very quickly once the Anubias is put back in the aquarium. Further Anubias are very hardy and will take more when it comes to dips than many other plants.

I've got a feeling that you didn't get much feedback reguarding the Excel dip in advance, simply because it wasn't something that most people around here had tried and therefore didn't know how or if you should proceed. I'd say that it's pretty evident that a full strength dip without out a rinse afterwards should not be advised in the future.

As to what's currently going on in your tank. There's two things that could be happening. First your Biofilter might have taken a hit from the high Excel levels. I'd test for Ammonia to check this out. The other is that your Biofilter might have been overloaded by all of the dead and decaying plant matter hitting it at once. If you haven't already remove as much of the dead plants as possible. This combined with the regular water changes you are already planning should get the tank straightened out soon. Luckily Excel is only active for about 24hrs, so you really don't have to worry about getting rid of the excess just straightening out the results. If you've got some Prime or Amquel, a slight overdose per instructions should help the tank by detoxifying any Ammonia that is present.

Your puffer may be stressing simply from being confined in the breeder net without out any decor. You might want to try adding a plastic plant for cover to help make him more comfortable, or some real ones that weren't affected by the Excel problems.

Good luck!

 

[WaterPond]

wow, thank you all for such great advice.

My test kit does not include ammonia so i will have to take a sample into my LFS soon.

I added some christmas moss that i had in a fish bowl(not affected by excel) for the puffer, i also put four snails in there which he chowed down on.

Things are doing ok now, havn't tested again, i will do that tomorrow. Thanks again

 

[Plantbrain]

You'd do better to focus on good conditions for the plants, and this will also help the fish/critters.

I say this 1001 times and still get grief from folks complaining about their algae issue.

You get algae because you do not provide good conditions for plant growth.
Folks seeking to outwit their algae with Excel, bleach etc will keep doing those methods ad nauesum.
Why?

You have to address the root issue/cause.
When you do, this also provides a much better place for fish as well.

So all the trimming, bleaching, Excel dosing, cleaning etc is not in vain !!!

When you use these algae removal methods, they actually are very effective if you correct the issue.

Most experienced folks can spot the plants not growing quite so well and check things before algae comes along, if algae are there, then you have done some neglecting of the plants.

Lots of plants from day one helps.
Proper use of CO2 and less, rather than more lighting will help make things much easier.

I'd suggest you focus specifically on CO2.
Then simply do some routine weekly water changes, say 50%, you can add ferts 2x a week for now and then when things pick up in terms of plant growth/biomass, go to 3x a week.

The water changes will prevent anything from building up and the frequent dosign will prevent anything from running out.

The ferts are very cheap, see www.Gregwatson.com

Plants are also if you ask folks on line if they have any cheapy extra plants if you offer shipping cost etc via paypal etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I have to agree with Tom. You can use the algae removing tools to get rid of the algae, but it WILL come back if you haven't FIXED the problem. I learned this with my 29G. Currently, with my CO2 injecting at higher rates, as well as CO2 mist, and proper dosing, my plants are growing great, and pearl like mad, and very minimal algae if any at all.....

 

[mr funktastic]

i really want pictures. u describe the tank well but i wish i could see it. i hope everything bounces back. once u get an dosing schedule down pat the algea will stay away and your plants will grow much faster and look healthier. i think u should tone your light down in the tank so the co2 stays higher and it should help combat the remaining algea. i was having a green water problem and when i removed some lights and made sure my co2 was producing it went away. plants are pretty resiliant. even if they completly rot away toa stump they will bounce back most of the time. i am sure the hygro will survive as well as the mosses. even the l.repens rubin has never let me down with growing back.remember that planted tanks take time. if u look at your glosso everyday for a week and get frsturated that it isnt growing then u need to get out of the planted hobby lol.

 

[7Enigma]

I dipped the plants then shook them let them site out of water for a few minutes to drip the rest off then placed them back. Anything else i should have done?

This caused it for sure. Bleach/excel/hydrogen peroxide are contact agents, they will work as long as they are in contact and at high concentrations with tissue. When you dipped them and then let them sit, the Excel was at full strength for several minutes (and actually increased in strength somewhat as the water evaporated). This will burn the algae very quickly, but also damage the plants badly.

You need to get an ammonia test kit ASAP. The fact that your nitrAtes are so high indicates to me that you had a huge amount of ammonia being produced. It seems as if your filter converted most of it, but the cloudiness of the water sounds like a massive bacterial bloom, again probably caused by all the food for the bacteria.

I would keep an eye out for GW, as if there is any residual ammonia levels this could occur.

Goodluck, and hopefully others will avoid this catastrophy. I would think a 30sec Excel dip with either a quick rinse under tap water (if a small tank and large(r) plants), or a quick shake and directly back into the tank (if a larger tank) would effectively kill the algae without harming the plants too badly.

It's been mentioned before but Excel, hydrogen peroxide, and bleach are no joke. They work very quickly, and the difference between killing only algae, and the plant/fish in the tank is a very fine line.

 

[WaterPond]

i'm new to planted tanks, ok, so bear with me, I am no pro, and i would really appreciate it if people could stop making me feel like an idiot

I didnt let the plants sit IN excel but after i dipped them i shook then let them sit on a towel for only a minute or so.

I'm thinking of just getting rid of the tank.