mandown123
Aquarium Advice Freak
you guys sure use a whole mess of chemicals dont you? maybe that is the problem in the first place?
kH dropped like a rock and the pH followed
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i gave the article a read. since the color gradient goes from yellow to green, the kit is uses a Salicylate reagent. i'm worried though; the Ammonia's around 2ppm. i've added the appropriate dose of AmQuel+, but the fish, the Angelfish in particular, are rather lethargic. i've also noticed their colors are faded. this is a complete change from the way they were back in Jersey.
i did start with the larger water changes, but what i want to avoid, a complete water change, seems unavoidable.
unfortunately the test doesn't distinguish between Ammonia and ionized Ammonia. i don't suppose there is a test that does is there?
as for using the chemicals, spot on, that was established as the culprit in the first few posts.
i did start with the larger water changes, but what i want to avoid, a complete water change, seems unavoidable.
unfortunately the test doesn't distinguish between Ammonia and ionized Ammonia. i don't suppose there is a test that does is there?
as for using the chemicals, spot on, that was established as the culprit in the first few posts.
whiddett
Aquarium Advice Regular
I think faded colours are a defo sign of stress - Ive seen it happen before and usually under circumstances where something has gone wrong like my light timer didnt work when I went away for a week.
i don't get this. i've practically replaced 40% of the water, and the Ammonia levels are still really high and getting even higher. they're like 2ppm or more according to the API test kit.
i'm using both AmQuel+, NovaQuel+ to what appears, no effect. unless it's also detecting ionized Ammonia.
can and should i double the dosage of AmQuel+? should i return it and get Prime instead? does Prime work better?
Salicylate aren't supposed to give false positives right? i also have Seachem's Ammonia test, errr device? the one you suction to the glass and note the changing disc color? according to this test, the Ammonia isn't nearly as high as the API kit shows.
i'm using both AmQuel+, NovaQuel+ to what appears, no effect. unless it's also detecting ionized Ammonia.
can and should i double the dosage of AmQuel+? should i return it and get Prime instead? does Prime work better?
Salicylate aren't supposed to give false positives right? i also have Seachem's Ammonia test, errr device? the one you suction to the glass and note the changing disc color? according to this test, the Ammonia isn't nearly as high as the API kit shows.
Salicylate test DO give false results if you wait too long after dosing to test. You need to test within a few minutes of dosing the product that neutralizes Ammonia to have the best chance of getting an accurate reading.
Your fish are showing definate signs of Stress, likely due to elevated Ammonia levels. I would recommend that you stop dosing NovaQuel+, and stick to the AmQuel+. There really isn't any need for both products. The AmQuel+ should have instructions on dosing to neutralize Ammonia. Follow those directions. If the Ammonia levels are too high for it to be able to treat, then Water Changes are your only option.
AmQuel+ and Prime are equally good products, Prime is just more economical since it is more concentrated.
Your fish are showing definate signs of Stress, likely due to elevated Ammonia levels. I would recommend that you stop dosing NovaQuel+, and stick to the AmQuel+. There really isn't any need for both products. The AmQuel+ should have instructions on dosing to neutralize Ammonia. Follow those directions. If the Ammonia levels are too high for it to be able to treat, then Water Changes are your only option.
AmQuel+ and Prime are equally good products, Prime is just more economical since it is more concentrated.
i stopped using NovaQuel+, and i am sticking to AmQuel+ as per your recommendation.
according to the instructions, you add 5ml per 10 gallons of water. they also say to wait 24 hours to repeat the dose. interestingly, Prime allows a double dose for really more serious Ammonia issues. i wish i bought and used Prime instead.
i noticed the first use of AmQuel+ produced a sulphur odor, but all subsequent uses do not produce the same odor. does this mean the product stopped working?
finally, while testing the aquarium water, i decided to test the tap water as well. strangely, (at least strange to me) the water showed an Ammonia concentration of 0.5ppm. what gives? i wonder if this means that the water changes are the culprit for the climbing Ammonia levels?
EDIT:
heh. check this out - from the Kordon website:
"Ammonia test kits using Salicylate-type reagents (reading on a colorimetric scale from yellow to green to blue green) are appropriate for accurate test results. A notable exception for what appears to be a Salicylate-type test kit that should not be used with AmQuel+ is the API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) ammonia test kit. For reasons unknown to us, it is incompatible with AmQuel+. Also it is important to read the Kordon Article 'The Truth About Water Test Kits...' to have a basic understanding of the quality differences in test kits."
geez. so i'm sitting here worrying about something that might not be an issue?
according to the instructions, you add 5ml per 10 gallons of water. they also say to wait 24 hours to repeat the dose. interestingly, Prime allows a double dose for really more serious Ammonia issues. i wish i bought and used Prime instead.
i noticed the first use of AmQuel+ produced a sulphur odor, but all subsequent uses do not produce the same odor. does this mean the product stopped working?
finally, while testing the aquarium water, i decided to test the tap water as well. strangely, (at least strange to me) the water showed an Ammonia concentration of 0.5ppm. what gives? i wonder if this means that the water changes are the culprit for the climbing Ammonia levels?
EDIT:
heh. check this out - from the Kordon website:
"Ammonia test kits using Salicylate-type reagents (reading on a colorimetric scale from yellow to green to blue green) are appropriate for accurate test results. A notable exception for what appears to be a Salicylate-type test kit that should not be used with AmQuel+ is the API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) ammonia test kit. For reasons unknown to us, it is incompatible with AmQuel+. Also it is important to read the Kordon Article 'The Truth About Water Test Kits...' to have a basic understanding of the quality differences in test kits."
geez. so i'm sitting here worrying about something that might not be an issue?
Last edited:
whoa. can someone comment on the following from the seachem website?
here's the blurb describing their Ammonia Alert Product:
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Q: I bought a Ammonia alert from Pet store but it doesn't not work at all after following all the instruction -How can I get my money refund back as it is not working at all and the COLOR NEVER CHANGES?[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
A:The technology of this device is very unique to our company and has been an excellent seller for many years to hobbyists, breeders, and public facilities alike. The Ammonia Alert is designed to change color in the presence of free (gaseous) ammonia, not ammonium (ionized ammonia) which is harmless to fish and other aquatic life. The longer it is left in a particular body of water/aquarium, the more sensitive it becomes to that water. Most conventional test kits test total ammonia which is a combination of free ammonia + ammonium = total ammonia. PH is the determining factor on what type is present. If your pH is acidic (below 7.0), it is chemically impossible for ammonia (harmful gas) to exist. Yet a total ammonia test kit will register a reading because it detects both the free ammonia (harmful gas) and ammonium (harmless ionized form of ammonia). The more basic your pH becomes, the greater the chance of ammonia existing. Example: If you have 1.0 ppm of total ammonia and your pH is below 7.0, then 1.0 ppm will exist as ammonium. Ex. If you have 1.0 ppm of total ammonia and your pH is 7.6 (slightly basic), then of that 1.0 ppm total ammonia......only .2 or so would exist as a gas and the other .8 would exist as ammonium.
There is one simple way to tell if our Ammonia Alert is functioning properly, simply hold the sensor over an open bottle of something containing ammonia (Windex glass cleaner will work) as it will detect the fumes/gas and change color. Plese be sure not to touch the sensor in the middle of the plastic card as the oils from your skin may clog the pores on the sensor."[/FONT]
here's the blurb describing their Ammonia Alert Product:
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Q: I bought a Ammonia alert from Pet store but it doesn't not work at all after following all the instruction -How can I get my money refund back as it is not working at all and the COLOR NEVER CHANGES?[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
A:The technology of this device is very unique to our company and has been an excellent seller for many years to hobbyists, breeders, and public facilities alike. The Ammonia Alert is designed to change color in the presence of free (gaseous) ammonia, not ammonium (ionized ammonia) which is harmless to fish and other aquatic life. The longer it is left in a particular body of water/aquarium, the more sensitive it becomes to that water. Most conventional test kits test total ammonia which is a combination of free ammonia + ammonium = total ammonia. PH is the determining factor on what type is present. If your pH is acidic (below 7.0), it is chemically impossible for ammonia (harmful gas) to exist. Yet a total ammonia test kit will register a reading because it detects both the free ammonia (harmful gas) and ammonium (harmless ionized form of ammonia). The more basic your pH becomes, the greater the chance of ammonia existing. Example: If you have 1.0 ppm of total ammonia and your pH is below 7.0, then 1.0 ppm will exist as ammonium. Ex. If you have 1.0 ppm of total ammonia and your pH is 7.6 (slightly basic), then of that 1.0 ppm total ammonia......only .2 or so would exist as a gas and the other .8 would exist as ammonium.
There is one simple way to tell if our Ammonia Alert is functioning properly, simply hold the sensor over an open bottle of something containing ammonia (Windex glass cleaner will work) as it will detect the fumes/gas and change color. Plese be sure not to touch the sensor in the middle of the plastic card as the oils from your skin may clog the pores on the sensor."[/FONT]
Most likely you've gotten used to the smell, and since you're expecting it you don't notice it as much any more. I seriously doubt that it suddenly stopped working.
Ammonia in Tap Water. What you probably have is Chloramines, which is Chlorine bonded with Ammonia to created a more stable chemical that doesn't simply gas off like Chlorine does. While this is great for clean drinking water, it's not so great for our fish. This means two things 1. you'll have to make sure to always use a dechlorinator that gets rid of both Chlorine and Chloramines 2. your test kit will register small amounts of Ammonia in your tap water. Once your aquarium finishes cycling this will be no big deal as the biological filter will be able to handle the influx of Ammonia during water changes. This does help explain why your water changes won't bring down the Ammonia levels quite as fast as expected. For instance if you currently have 2ppm Ammonia, you'd need to do a 25% or larger water change to bring down the current levels.
I'm somewhat familiar with the information on SeaChem's website, unfortunately I think that chemistry is just too far beyond me at the moment. Maybe one day it'll start making sense and I'll be able to keep it straight in my head. BTW - Where is the aquarium pH at by now? You may be able to consider doing larger water changes, which would definately help out with the Ammonia situation.
Definately pay attention to your fish. They are one of the best indicators that something is wrong.
Ammonia in Tap Water. What you probably have is Chloramines, which is Chlorine bonded with Ammonia to created a more stable chemical that doesn't simply gas off like Chlorine does. While this is great for clean drinking water, it's not so great for our fish. This means two things 1. you'll have to make sure to always use a dechlorinator that gets rid of both Chlorine and Chloramines 2. your test kit will register small amounts of Ammonia in your tap water. Once your aquarium finishes cycling this will be no big deal as the biological filter will be able to handle the influx of Ammonia during water changes. This does help explain why your water changes won't bring down the Ammonia levels quite as fast as expected. For instance if you currently have 2ppm Ammonia, you'd need to do a 25% or larger water change to bring down the current levels.
I'm somewhat familiar with the information on SeaChem's website, unfortunately I think that chemistry is just too far beyond me at the moment. Maybe one day it'll start making sense and I'll be able to keep it straight in my head. BTW - Where is the aquarium pH at by now? You may be able to consider doing larger water changes, which would definately help out with the Ammonia situation.
Definately pay attention to your fish. They are one of the best indicators that something is wrong.
alright. the GF's a biochemist by training, so she explained this briefly. i forget which is which already, but ammonia and ammonium react differently to basic and acidic environments. when you have acidic water, as per what the kordon website said, you have more ammonium, which is harmless to fish.
i guess in a way my dropping pH did a good thing in keeping the total ammonia nitrogen (levels) tilted heavily towards the ammonium side.
here's a link that shows something pretty similar to what i have. at ~82F and with a pH of 6.0 the ammonia NH3 levels are near zero.
the same website states that lower pH levels effect nitrifying bacteria levels adversely. worse, if the pH jumps higher, as it does with the water changes, the ammonia/ammonium ratio tilts in favor of ammonia.
therefore, after reading all this, i'm not going to keep doing the large water changes. i'll stick to the smaller water changes. i'm still adding the daily dose of AmQuel+ to further neutralize the ammonia (just in case) even though the chemical properties of ammonia keeps it at ammonium in these conditions. i've also started to add Seachem's Stability in the hope that i can kickstart the cycle.
here are the link in case anyone's interested:
Aquaworld Aquarium - The Ammonia and pH Relationship
i guess in a way my dropping pH did a good thing in keeping the total ammonia nitrogen (levels) tilted heavily towards the ammonium side.
here's a link that shows something pretty similar to what i have. at ~82F and with a pH of 6.0 the ammonia NH3 levels are near zero.
the same website states that lower pH levels effect nitrifying bacteria levels adversely. worse, if the pH jumps higher, as it does with the water changes, the ammonia/ammonium ratio tilts in favor of ammonia.
therefore, after reading all this, i'm not going to keep doing the large water changes. i'll stick to the smaller water changes. i'm still adding the daily dose of AmQuel+ to further neutralize the ammonia (just in case) even though the chemical properties of ammonia keeps it at ammonium in these conditions. i've also started to add Seachem's Stability in the hope that i can kickstart the cycle.
here are the link in case anyone's interested:
Aquaworld Aquarium - The Ammonia and pH Relationship
whiddett
Aquarium Advice Regular
Hi. How are things going now? I have just got a API master test kit and found my new tank is measuring 1ppm ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 10 Nitrate and PH is 8.0. I'm a bit worried now about the ammonia levels. But I am only using stress coat and stress zyme. I saw on the bottle like you said that the stress coat removes ammonia from tap water. Did you ever figure out if that is true or if it convert Ammonia to Ammonium maybe? I just wondered if your recent experimental data might be able to help me out with some advice at all?
might be able to help me out with some advice at all?whiddett
Aquarium Advice Regular
I just read that Ammonia/PH relationship article. Very interesting. According to that my Ammonia level should be around 0.1ppm and 0.9ppm Ammonium. My water temperature is more like 25-26degC so I'm not sure how much that effects things but not much I guess.
hey how's it going.
so far things are okay. i'm purposely keeping the pH between 6.0-6.4 to keep most of the total ammonia in the form of ammonium.
my bigger issue is a sick female golden killie. the poor thing might have dropsy. while she's not really swollen, her scales have started to pine-cone from the mouth to the pectoral fins. i put her in a quarantine tank, and started treating with Jungle's "Fungus Clear." unfortunately, no one's responded to my post about treating her, so i'm really playing it based on what i've read online. i was thinking about treating with Epsom Salt, to reduce the swelling, but then she's not really that swollen, and i dunno how to treat with Epson Salt.
anyways, with your case, other than the pH, you need to consider the temperature to find out how much of the total ammonia (you probably already know this - ammonia+ammonium) is free ammonia/toxic ammonia/NH3.
some test kits have the scale. unfortunately, the API test kit doesnt. use this calculator to figure it out:
http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html
for example, with your factors, a pH of 8 and a total ammonia concentration of 1ppm, and say off the top of my head, a temp of 78F, the toxic ammonia concentration comes out to ~0.58mg/L. since 1mg/L = 1ppm that's, 0.58ppm?
as for the stress coat. according to purrbox's earlier post, stress coat causes irritation, which produces the extra slime coat - the reason i stopped using it. i figured the fish were already stressed as it is, and having itching all over the place isn't helping them too much.
i think the current stuff is "reforumlated" or something; therefore,
if API says it deals with ammonia issues, i guess it's safe to believe them? what do you think?
so far things are okay. i'm purposely keeping the pH between 6.0-6.4 to keep most of the total ammonia in the form of ammonium.
my bigger issue is a sick female golden killie. the poor thing might have dropsy. while she's not really swollen, her scales have started to pine-cone from the mouth to the pectoral fins. i put her in a quarantine tank, and started treating with Jungle's "Fungus Clear." unfortunately, no one's responded to my post about treating her, so i'm really playing it based on what i've read online. i was thinking about treating with Epsom Salt, to reduce the swelling, but then she's not really that swollen, and i dunno how to treat with Epson Salt.
anyways, with your case, other than the pH, you need to consider the temperature to find out how much of the total ammonia (you probably already know this - ammonia+ammonium) is free ammonia/toxic ammonia/NH3.
some test kits have the scale. unfortunately, the API test kit doesnt. use this calculator to figure it out:
http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html
for example, with your factors, a pH of 8 and a total ammonia concentration of 1ppm, and say off the top of my head, a temp of 78F, the toxic ammonia concentration comes out to ~0.58mg/L. since 1mg/L = 1ppm that's, 0.58ppm?
as for the stress coat. according to purrbox's earlier post, stress coat causes irritation, which produces the extra slime coat - the reason i stopped using it. i figured the fish were already stressed as it is, and having itching all over the place isn't helping them too much.
i think the current stuff is "reforumlated" or something; therefore,
if API says it deals with ammonia issues, i guess it's safe to believe them? what do you think?
whiddett
Aquarium Advice Regular
Yeah I saw the post about Stress Coat creating the slime coat by irritation but to be honest I find that hard to believe without some evidence to support it. I find it hard to believe that anyone would produce a product to protect against stress, but which actually causes stress to the fish by irritating them :S. So I'm going to carry on using it for now. Maybe I'll look at other products when I run out.
As far as the Ammonia removal goes they dont make a big deal of it which seems a little odd. But having looked at the description of Ammo-lock I'm wondering if its actually the exact same stuff as Stress Coat! Ammo-lock is supposed to dechlorinate too. So maybe they dont make a big deal about Stress Coat removing/detoxifying ammonia because they want people to buy both. It would be good if somebody could clarify this for us.
As far as the Ammonia removal goes they dont make a big deal of it which seems a little odd. But having looked at the description of Ammo-lock I'm wondering if its actually the exact same stuff as Stress Coat! Ammo-lock is supposed to dechlorinate too. So maybe they dont make a big deal about Stress Coat removing/detoxifying ammonia because they want people to buy both. It would be good if somebody could clarify this for us.
heh. i parallel that thinking. it sounds a bit odd that stress is reduced by causing more stress. i didn't wanna risk it though. the fish made a cross country trek in really bad conditions and the water chemistry was screwed up, so i stopped using it.
good to hear that your toxic ammonia level is 0.1ppm. that outta dilute out easily with a water change or so.
you hear anything about seachem's ammonia monitor disk thing? i'm using that now, but i'm not sure what hobbyists think about its effectiveness.
good to hear that your toxic ammonia level is 0.1ppm. that outta dilute out easily with a water change or so.
you hear anything about seachem's ammonia monitor disk thing? i'm using that now, but i'm not sure what hobbyists think about its effectiveness.
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