kH dropped like a rock and the pH followed

[xyyz]

i'm going to try a 1/3 water change tonite. let's see what that does. if it doesn't do anything, i'll move them into a clean ten gallon and start from scratch.

i don't know if it's a reason for alarm, but one of the smaller angel fish is starting to hide out and not eat. the fish is still somewhat active and has spurts of activity, but i'm thinking it might be stressed. the fact another angel fish keeps harassing it, isn't helping the situation. should i get one of those quarantine nets or let it be?

 

[whiddett]

I really dont know mate. Probably best just concentrate on getting that water sorted out. This must be costing you a small fortune!

 

[xyyz]

tell me about it. shipping these from the east coast to the west coast was not at all cheap. :/

i guess i'll add the driftwood much later. since that'll release tanins and further drop the pH.

 

[xyyz]

here's the good news.

i did a small water change earlier today to get ready for a larger change. i checked the pH a few minutes ago and it's at 6.4. it didn't crash below 6 like it usually does. also on the plus side the nitrites are at about 25ppm down from the 1-.5ppm. the ammonia is hovering between 0-.25ppm.

the fish seem a bit more active. one of the male killies is constantly on a female killie. when i first saw this, i thought it was spawning behavior, but after a few months of no fry, i figure it's killie play.

i guess i'll stick to the small water change again for tonight. the real test is what happens when i wake up in the morning. hopefully the pH won't crash.

 

[mandown123]

ill throw my two cents in i guess.

why not do a 50 - 60 % water change, but drain the tank and then slowly add the water little by little a la drip, or just pour it in in wide intervals, to change all the water you need to. When you change so little at a time, all the undersireable water re-mixes with the new water and you have to change that much more to get the effect you want.

add the new water slow so as not to stress out (which you are right to realize is a big concern) the fish.

 

[whiddett]

Sounds promising. If you can get the PH stable at least you will be able to continue with a steady program of small water changes rather than going for the big one.

 

[Purrbox]

Sounds like you may have finally reached the critical point where the chemicals are no longer destabilizing the KH and pH. As your aquarium water and tap water get closer to having the same parameters you can do larger water changes to speed up the process, since the changes won't be as drastic. For now keeping it slow and steady seems to be working well. Congrats!

 

[xyyz]

hmmm... i checked the pH. unfortunately, the pH dropped <= 6.0. i'm not going to take this as an entire defeat though. at least the pH dropped slower than it usually does. i'll assume the acid buffer in the water is getting more and more diluted.

another plus, the nitrites are slowly decreasing. unfortunately, the ammonia is creeping up.

can someone give me some detail about this drip method? if i do a major water change, how do i do the drip method? i know it involves another water source, a bucket, and some sort of tubing. can someone explain in detail please?

 

[neilanh]

THe drip method is only going to help you for acclimating new fish, not conducting water changes on your tank.

 

[Purrbox]

Neilan - xyyz is asking about the drip method in order to start from scratch without all the pH adjusters that were added at first.

What you would need to do is remove the fish into the bucket. Completely empty your aquarium and then refill with tap water that has only been treated with dechlorinator. Then use a length of airline tubing to slowly drip water from the tank into the bucket. You can control the flow by tying a knot and adjusting how tight it is, or you can get an airflow controller and splice it into the airline tubing. Once the water in the bucket doubles, empty half and repeat. Continue until the KH/pH of the bucket matches the aquarium. You'll want to space this out so that it takes several hours so as to not shock your fish.

 

[xyyz]

ahhh... makes sense. alright. i guess i'll give that a shot later tonite or tomorrow afternoon.

 

[neilanh]

Sorry about that.

 

[xyyz]

i've started the larger water change, in prep for the complete replacement.

i'm about to think out loud. tell me if this is a bad idea.

right now the pH is <= 6. how low can the pH go? also, is a low pH bad for the fish? i know that killies and angelfish are said to "prefer" water with a low pH. i did plan on adding a pair or two pair of discuss in the future.

when i add the tap water, depending on the volume, i make sure the pH doesn't go above 6.8.

if i slow the water changes, mainly to keep the nitrites and ammonia in check, the pH increases to about 6.2-6.4 once per day.

so the question, will the fish be alright in a low pH with a very low kH? if i keep things slow, sorta' the way i'm doing things, eventually the pH and kH will come up to the level of the tap water.

 

[Purrbox]

I really can't tell you how quickly you can change the KH/ph on your fish without stressing them. I know I've read some figures, but I can't for the life of me think where. My recommendation is to watch for signs of stress, and if you see them stop.

Fish will do well in most any KH/pH as long as they are stable. It's stability that is key.

 

[xyyz]

i think this tank is slowly getting a little better. the pH didn't drop below ~6.4 overnight, which means i'm gonna hold off on the large water change for now. as for the other factors, the nitrites are around 0ppm, which is good. unfortunately, the ammonia has peaked at 1ppm. i'm using API's Stress Coat + for fish stress, and with the hope it reduces the ammonia level. this introduces my other question: does Stress Coat+ reduce ammonia like it says on the bottle, or does it nullify the effects? i ask because after waiting a day since i used it to reduce the ammonia, the ammonia level is still 1ppm. as a result, i went out an bought Kordon's NovaQuel+, but i'm hesitating on using it because of the advice given about not adding to my water right now.

 

[Purrbox]

I think that you are probably mixing up your bottles. I find absolution no reference to a version of stress coat that neutralizes or removes ammonia. NovaQuel+ also make no reference to removing Ammonia. I'm really not fond of either because of their claims of improving the slime coat. The way they do this is by irritating the fish's skin/scales causing them to produce more slime to protect themselves. If the NovaQuel+ is unopened I'd recommend returning it.

For a good dechlorinator that also detoxifies Ammonia, you'll want either Prime or AmQuel+. Both are good products, although I prefer Prime since it is more concentrated and as a result more cost effective. Even if you do use a product to detoxify Ammonia, your test kit may still register Ammonia depending on the type of kit. Some are able to detect Ammonium (detoxified Ammonia) while others aren't.

You best bet for dealing with high levels of Ammonia or Nitrite is a larger water change. I'd be more concerned about the damage that the Ammonia and Nitrite levels are doing than I would possibly shocking them with a change in KH/pH.

 

[xyyz]

i didn't know that about Stress Coat+. what's the best stress coat recommended for use? how good is the aquarium salt? I actually went out and bought another bottle of the stuff, which i wont open if it's irritating the fish. Poor fish, I've been using ALOT of the stuff.

as for the claim made by API, the following is printed on the Stress Coat+ bottle, "Removes chlorine, chloramines & ammonia in tap water."

As for the Kordon product, I did get AmQuel+, I don't know why I mistyped it as NovaQuel+.

 

[Purrbox]

The must not have added the Ammonia portion of the description to API's website yet. Probably a fairly recent change. If I look closely at the label in the picture, I can almost make out where it's stating this. It's probably converting the Ammonia to Ammonium which isn't harmful to fish and may be detectable by your test kit. Which test kit are you using?

If it were me, I'd switch to AmQuel+. I've always heard much better feedback on it than Stress Coat.

 

[xyyz]

thanks for all the constant advice and giving my noob questions answers all to helping me sort all this out.

i'm using two test kits: the first is API's Freshwater Master Kit; the second kit is Jungle's 5 test Quick Dip. unfortunately, the Jungle kit doesn't test for Ammonia. Kordon's AmQuel label says something about incompatibilities with kits using Nessler's reagents. i hope this isn't mechanism used in the API kit. the label also says to use ammonia test kits with Salicylate reagents.

i've done the swap to AmQuel+ as my neutralizing agent. initially, i started to panic because of the Sulphur smell. a lot of stress and frantic googling later, i found the smell's normal. i wish they'd mention this on the label like Seachem does on the label of Prime.

what do you recommend for a stress guard? i was looking at Kordon's NovAqua+. I know it's a water conditioner, but Kordon claims it has stress guard properties. i was also reading a bit about Seachem's Stress Guard, although i can't find it at the local petsmart. are either of these any good? if they're not recommended, do you have a recommendation for something else?

 

[Purrbox]

The bottom of this article describes the differences between the two types of kits (Nessler and Salicylate). Nessler will always give bad results and this post describes how to test to get valid results when using a Salicylate test. In searches I see the API kit listed as both types, although the more recent reports seem to be calling it a Salicylate test. If it is indeed a Salicylate test, then you'll want to test within a few minutes of dosing the AmQuel (or other Ammonia neutralizing chemical) to get an accurate reading.

I wouldn't bother with a chemical to relieve stress. The best cure is an aquarium with plenty of hiding spots and good clean water. If necessary add some more decor for the fish to hide in, you're already doing what you can to ensure that the water conditions improve.