Lighting Advice

[GeminiPrincess]

Could someone please give me some advice? I was originally told that 2.5 wpg for my 26g bow front would be considered moderate lighting and would have success in keeping and growing my plants. I went to the high end reputable fish store in town today and talked to the plant expert and he said I needed to get a 4 bulb t5 or a Halide light which are over twice as much as the compact 65w light i was going to get. I understand now tht the bulbs in the compacts are way more expensive and don't last as long as the others. But is that true about the 2.5 not being good enough? I looked for lights online and found this one on ebay: eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices could this light work? Its ugly as sin but i don't really care at this point. Thanks in advance!

 

[JohnPaul]

2.5 WPG would be considered a "medium light" setup. So it will grow low-light and probably most medium-light plants. You would likely have minimal success in growing high-light plants.

Unless there are certain specific plants that you absolutely, positively want in your tank, and those are high-light plants, then there is utterly no reason for the pet store guy to tell you that your plans to go with the 65W setup was inadequate.

If you buy that light you linked to on ebay, you are looking at over 4 WPG. At that lighting level you are going to need to use injected CO2 (probably pressurized, I'm not sure if DIY would hack it) as well as a rather comprehensive fertilization regime dosing both macro and trace ferts. Are you ready/willing to do that?

 

[GeminiPrincess]

2.5 WPG would be considered a "medium light" setup. So it will grow low-light and probably most medium-light plants. You would likely have minimal success in growing high-light plants.

Unless there are certain specific plants that you absolutely, positively want in your tank, and those are high-light plants, then there is utterly no reason for the pet store guy to tell you that your plans to go with the 65W setup was inadequate.

If you buy that light you linked to on ebay, you are looking at over 4 WPG. At that lighting level you are going to need to use injected CO2 (probably pressurized, I'm not sure if DIY would hack it) as well as a rather comprehensive fertilization regime dosing both macro and trace ferts. Are you ready/willing to do that?

Thanks, I was a freakin out a little bit trying to figure out how i was going to pull that money out of thin air. I don't have money for CO2 or anything of that nature. If i were to go with 4wpg i would need CO2? Why? I am very new to the whole idea of a planted tank.

 

[RaptorBro]

high light

 

[JohnPaul]

Basically, when it comes to growing plants, there are multiple things plants need to grow:

• light
• carbon (which means CO2 or a liquid carbon source)
• macro nutrients (nitrate, phosphate, potassium)
• micro nutrients (iron and all sorts of other trace elements)

Where planted tanks get into trouble is when those things aren't in balance. A low-light tank has only a little light, so plants grow slowly, which means they only use up carbon, macros, and micros in small amounts. In this scenario, the level of CO2 naturally dissolved in your aquarium water (from equilibrium with CO2 in the atmosphere) is adequate, fish poop etc. provides enough of the macro nutrients, and your regular water changes supply enough micro nutrients.

Now if you have a very high amount of light, that is going to make the plants want to grow really fast. Of course, plants need carbon to grow (carbon is the backbone of most cells). But plant growth at high lighting requires more carbon--more CO2--than the ambient levels in your water just from atmospheric CO2. In other words, you need to artificially inject more carbon into your water via a CO2 system. If you don't, then what will happen is you have all this light, but the plants can't grow and take advantage of it because there is no CO2 for them. So what will happen? Algae will take advantage of the fact there are unused nutrients, and lots of light, and you'll have an algae explosion.

The general principle is that if you are providing enough of everything in my bullet-point list above, and it is all relatively balanced, then plants have an advantage over algae, and you'll have lush plant growth and very minimal algae. However, if you have large amounts of some things (e.g. light) but are deficient in other things (e.g. CO2), then what happens is plants can't grow well and instead algae will begin to grow out of control.

That's the danger about putting 4 WPG on a tank with no CO2 injection. You are basically going to be creating a 26 gallon vat of algae. Which I don't think you want to do. Even 2.5 WPG (which is what you would be at with the 65W light) is really borderline...you might be able to get by without CO2 but you probably will have to dose some Flourish Excel (which is a liquid carbon source, roughly equivalent to having CO2) from time to time instead, and possibly may find yourself needing to do at least some minimal dosing of other ferts as well. I have a couple of tanks at 3 WPG and I dose Flourish Excel at every water change and occasionally dose other stuff as well.

 

[GeminiPrincess]

Basically, when it comes to growing plants, there are multiple things plants need to grow:

• light
• carbon (which means CO2 or a liquid carbon source)
• macro nutrients (nitrate, phosphate, potassium)
• micro nutrients (iron and all sorts of other trace elements)

Where planted tanks get into trouble is when those things aren't in balance. A low-light tank has only a little light, so plants grow slowly, which means they only use up carbon, macros, and micros in small amounts. In this scenario, the level of CO2 naturally dissolved in your aquarium water (from equilibrium with CO2 in the atmosphere) is adequate, fish poop etc. provides enough of the macro nutrients, and your regular water changes supply enough micro nutrients.

Now if you have a very high amount of light, that is going to make the plants want to grow really fast. Of course, plants need carbon to grow (carbon is the backbone of most cells). But plant growth at high lighting requires more carbon--more CO2--than the ambient levels in your water just from atmospheric CO2. In other words, you need to artificially inject more carbon into your water via a CO2 system. If you don't, then what will happen is you have all this light, but the plants can't grow and take advantage of it because there is no CO2 for them. So what will happen? Algae will take advantage of the fact there are unused nutrients, and lots of light, and you'll have an algae explosion.

The general principle is that if you are providing enough of everything in my bullet-point list above, and it is all relatively balanced, then plants have an advantage over algae, and you'll have lush plant growth and very minimal algae. However, if you have large amounts of some things (e.g. light) but are deficient in other things (e.g. CO2), then what happens is plants can't grow well and instead algae will begin to grow out of control.

That's the danger about putting 4 WPG on a tank with no CO2 injection. You are basically going to be creating a 26 gallon vat of algae. Which I don't think you want to do. Even 2.5 WPG (which is what you would be at with the 65W light) is really borderline...you might be able to get by without CO2 but you probably will have to dose some Flourish Excel (which is a liquid carbon source, roughly equivalent to having CO2) from time to time instead, and possibly may find yourself needing to do at least some minimal dosing of other ferts as well. I have a couple of tanks at 3 WPG and I dose Flourish Excel at every water change and occasionally dose other stuff as well.

Wow, that was really helpful, thanks. I am still a little confused though. So if i get the 65W, I may still get algae? Or i just need to use the flourish excel? I have the flourish tabs under the plants and I've been using Leaf Zone. It will probably be awhile longer then first expected to get the new lighting (the girl who was going to buy my old tank and stuff backed out). Another thing- My son's 1o gallon tank has 2 50/50 bulbs which totals 20wpg. He has 3 really small swords, 1 small Java fern and 2 Ambuila, should i be adding anything besides leaf zone?

Oh and do baby tears need high light?

 

[JohnPaul]

Wow, that was really helpful, thanks. I am still a little confused though.

Glad it was helpful. I am very much NOT an expert, but I'll continue to try to help as I can.

So if i get the 65W, I may still get algae?

You have the potential to get algae at ANY level of lighting. It's just that, as you get to higher & higher light levels, the risk of algae increases significantly. Maybe a good analogy is driving a car and keeping it on the road. You can do that when driving 10 mph, and you can do that driving 80 or 90 mph. But the faster you are going, the more true it becomes that the slightest flinch or slightest turn in the steering wheel is going to send you careening off the road. It's the same with algae in an aquarium. It's possible to get algae at any light level, but the higher WPG you go, the more likely it is that the slightest imbalance in nutrients is going to lead to algae problems. The "keeping all the nutrients in balance" act becomes much more difficult the higher the lighting level you go. This is why often people recommend that your first planted tank be a low-light, relatively low-maintenance one. Do that for a year or two to get the basics of keeping a planted aquarium, and then maybe down the road you can expand to higher light levels which require a proportionately greater degree of energy/effort and skill.

Or i just need to use the flourish excel?

Flourish Excel is a liquid carbon source--you can think of it as a liquid form of CO2 (though that's not technically scientifically correct, but it's a rough approximation for the sake of the discussion here.) In a very low-light tank, typically it is the light level that limits growth--so there is no benefit to running CO2 or dosing with Flourish Excel. In a higher light tank with no CO2 being added, it can often be the case that lack of available carbon is the limiting factor in plant growth. Under such circumstances, dosing with Excel can be very helpful in keeping plant growth good and algae growth minimized.

I have the flourish tabs under the plants and I've been using Leaf Zone.

Flourish Tabs provide potassium and trace elements (most notably iron) to plant roots. Leaf Zone provides potassium and iron to the water column. If all of your plants are rooted plants (i.e. not floating plants or attached-to-driftwood plants) than using both LeafZone and the tabs is probably overkill. I would keep the tabs (since they provide not only iron and potassium, but also lots of other micronutrients) and consider dropping the LeafZone, as it isn't really adding anything that the tabs aren't already providing.

It will probably be awhile longer then first expected to get the new lighting (the girl who was going to buy my old tank and stuff backed out).

If your lighting level right now is pretty minimal, then that's even more reason to hold off on the LeafZone for the time being.

Another thing- My son's 1o gallon tank has 2 50/50 bulbs which totals 20wpg. He has 3 really small swords, 1 small Java fern and 2 Ambuila, should i be adding anything besides leaf zone?

50/50, as in, actinic? Actinic bulbs have zero value for growing freshwater plants, so if that's what you are talking about then really you have (at most) 10W over 10g, or 1.0 WPG. That is very low light. The good news is that java ferns can take low light just fine, and ambulia should be able to do okay (though not great) at that lighting level as well. With such minimal light, I doubt you would need to dose anything at all. A little LeafZone won't hurt but it probably isn't necessary either. Just keep up on water changes as that is going to provide the trace nutrients plants need.

Oh and do baby tears need high light?

I've just recently put some baby tears in my medium-light tank (3.0 WPG) that I dose occasional Excel and trace dosing. It's too early to say for sure, but it looks to me like they are surviving but growing very, very slowly if at all. But they've only been in there a few weeks so the jury is still out. I have heard that for baby tears to really thrive, they need high light and CO2.

 

[GeminiPrincess]

Glad it was helpful. I am very much NOT an expert, but I'll continue to try to help as I can.

You have the potential to get algae at ANY level of lighting. It's just that, as you get to higher & higher light levels, the risk of algae increases significantly. Maybe a good analogy is driving a car and keeping it on the road. You can do that when driving 10 mph, and you can do that driving 80 or 90 mph. But the faster you are going, the more true it becomes that the slightest flinch or slightest turn in the steering wheel is going to send you careening off the road. It's the same with algae in an aquarium. It's possible to get algae at any light level, but the higher WPG you go, the more likely it is that the slightest imbalance in nutrients is going to lead to algae problems. The "keeping all the nutrients in balance" act becomes much more difficult the higher the lighting level you go. This is why often people recommend that your first planted tank be a low-light, relatively low-maintenance one. Do that for a year or two to get the basics of keeping a planted aquarium, and then maybe down the road you can expand to higher light levels which require a proportionately greater degree of energy/effort and skill.

Flourish Excel is a liquid carbon source--you can think of it as a liquid form of CO2 (though that's not technically scientifically correct, but it's a rough approximation for the sake of the discussion here.) In a very low-light tank, typically it is the light level that limits growth--so there is no benefit to running CO2 or dosing with Flourish Excel. In a higher light tank with no CO2 being added, it can often be the case that lack of available carbon is the limiting factor in plant growth. Under such circumstances, dosing with Excel can be very helpful in keeping plant growth good and algae growth minimized.

Flourish Tabs provide potassium and trace elements (most notably iron) to plant roots. Leaf Zone provides potassium and iron to the water column. If all of your plants are rooted plants (i.e. not floating plants or attached-to-driftwood plants) than using both LeafZone and the tabs is probably overkill. I would keep the tabs (since they provide not only iron and potassium, but also lots of other micronutrients) and consider dropping the LeafZone, as it isn't really adding anything that the tabs aren't already providing.

If your lighting level right now is pretty minimal, then that's even more reason to hold off on the LeafZone for the time being.

50/50, as in, actinic? Actinic bulbs have zero value for growing freshwater plants, so if that's what you are talking about then really you have (at most) 10W over 10g, or 1.0 WPG. That is very low light. The good news is that java ferns can take low light just fine, and ambulia should be able to do okay (though not great) at that lighting level as well. With such minimal light, I doubt you would need to dose anything at all. A little LeafZone won't hurt but it probably isn't necessary either. Just keep up on water changes as that is going to provide the trace nutrients plants need.

I've just recently put some baby tears in my medium-light tank (3.0 WPG) that I dose occasional Excel and trace dosing. It's too early to say for sure, but it looks to me like they are surviving but growing very, very slowly if at all. But they've only been in there a few weeks so the jury is still out. I have heard that for baby tears to really thrive, they need high light and CO2.

Wonderful, thank you! So just so im clear -sorry- when i get a 65W bulb for my 26 i should add the excel with the tabs that are already planted? Are there any plants with color to them besides green that would be good with the upgraded light?

And for my son's tank i should get different bulbs if i want more lighting...would the mini compact colormax bulbs work? They say 10w each and for fresh tanks. 4wpg for a 10 gallon is a lot and with that i would need co2 and not just excel right?

 

[mudraker]

Baby tears grow poorly in low light.

There is a red varieties of crypt (cryptocoryne Wendtii) that does great in low to medium light. I have tons of it in many of my tanks and it grows in very low light to higher light, with and without fertz.

There are also some types of dwarf water lily bulbs that grow pink leaves that do well in low light, especially Nymphaea Stellata.

The australians variety of bacopa grows a nice contrasting lighter green when grown in water with over 2 wpg.

Some varieties of red ludwigia will retain their red leaves in the midrange light, which you will have.

The 4 wpg for a 10 gal is really, really high for such a small setup. You would definately need to go all out for that, will a lot of trial and error probably.

 

[GeminiPrincess]

Baby tears grow poorly in low light.

There is a red varieties of crypt (cryptocoryne Wendtii) that does great in low to medium light. I have tons of it in many of my tanks and it grows in very low light to higher light, with and without fertz.

There are also some types of dwarf water lily bulbs that grow pink leaves that do well in low light, especially Nymphaea Stellata.

The australians variety of bacopa grows a nice contrasting lighter green when grown in water with over 2 wpg.

Some varieties of red ludwigia will retain their red leaves in the midrange light, which you will have.

The 4 wpg for a 10 gal is really, really high for such a small setup. You would definately need to go all out for that, will a lot of trial and error probably.

I found some other 10w bulbs for it so now it really is 20w in the 10 gallon.

Thanks for the plant advice, I want some pink in my tank lol.

 

[GeminiPrincess]

what about Red Tiger Lotus? it says it needs medium lighting would 2.5wpg be ok?