Major Problems (not disease)

[Elaine79]

Okay, my 30 gallon planted tank (that I've had since September) is seriously unhealthy. Its kind of a long story, but I'll include all this information in case its helpful.

So about a month and a half ago I got a new filter because my old one broke. I didn't want to go though a cycle again so I left the old biological filter in the tank while the new one was getting established.

Then a few weeks ago I got some new plants and threw out some old ones. The nitrogen cycle statrted again (I guess because we disturbed the gravel a lot when putting the plants in) but by that time we had thrown out the old biological filter. So we have been doing small water changes and adding Cycle every once in a while. The nitrite has been a little elevated but not enough to kill the fish.

Then yesterday my boyfriend and I went to the lfs to talk to them about the algae that is overtaking the tank. We did a large water change (about 30%) We added Flourish Excel and Flourish Iron but we are sure we didn't add too much. We know we need to add more CO2 for the plants (we have enough for up to a 20 gallon tank) so we used one Jungle Plant Care Fizz Tab. (Now for this stuff they said they weren't sure about how effective it was, so we should tell them how we liked it. And the directions said that if was to be used with a CO2 system they make, but we were trusting the lfs, who know what they are talking about.) And then we added some chemical to help us get rid of the cloudy water we have been having. We put a little bag of crushed coral in the tank for a few minutes to raise our PH a little (its at 6.4 now).

And then last night I noticed one of my cardinal tetras sort of swimming upside down. We started looking for our other fish and something was definitely wrong, so we did another big water change. But we have lost all of our cardinals and 1 clown loach (which I know would get too big for the tank but it was only a couple of inches long).

My other fish are looking lethargic and no one is eating. I don't know what killed my fish. I am guessing that there was too much CO2 in the tank? I feel really bad because I thought that all this stuff was good for the tank (except the clearing chemical, which I wouldn't use often) and everyone seemed to be doing so well before.

Should I do another water change? I've already changed so much.

Any feedback would be appriciated. Thank you.

 

[BrianNY]

So many things could have happened that it's difficult to say which one killed your fish. IMO throwing chemical solutions to cure problems (perceived or real), is likely to end in disaster. If I had to guess I would say the worst thing to do was jolt the CO2 level of the tank when the pH was as low as it was. Crushed Coral does not act instantly to bring the pH level up, it can take days.

One of these (or both), killed your fish. A pH crash or an O2 depletion. Both of them were because of the CO2 fizz tabs. Sorry but your lfs gave you some very fatal advice.

 

[NJFishman]

I concur. Sounds like a chemical cocktail that had a end result of death. Any medication/chemical/liquid substance/powder should be seriously reviewed and analyzed.

 

[Elaine79]

But will it be safe to add the plant fertilizer in the future? I really enjoyed the cardinals but wouldn't get them if they can't live in a planted tank.

And obviously I am going to throw the fizz tabs away. I am going back to the lfs today to tell them about the disaster.

Should I try to raise the pH more? Or just leave things as they are? We used the coral because it seemd like it would be a slower/more natural way to raise the pH. Eventually the pH will return to 6 (as I understand it).

Thank for the help. I just don't want any more fish to die.

 

[NJFishman]

I'm a little lost, seems like your always wanting to add some sort of powder, chemical, fertilizer whatever. I would get rid and stop everything your putting in that tank for few weeks\months, let the water get back to its natural self, test the pH, gH, kH, all that, then post the natural results of the water. from there I would analyze the results to see EXACTLY specifically would be needed. Whatever is needed is probably something natural, so go for natural, none of these fertilizer, chemcial mixes. Cardinals love planted tanks, they hate chemicals. Most plantred tanks do fine living off extra food broken down into the gravel, fish poo, weekly water changes. If there is something needed for the plants, it will be something natural.

 

[Elaine79]

Don't be confused. I am not always wanting to add stuff to the tank- this is the first time, so its not 'always.' I've never added stuff to the tank before, and according to all the information I've read, plants need trace element not provided by fish waste in the form of fertilizer. I have enough wpg for the plants, but they are dying and I am trying to fix that by taking care of them.

Everything that we did with our tank was done under professional advice from our local fish store. We aren't constantly adding things to our tank. We just happened to add some things yesterday in order to help our plants and fix our algae problem. I appreciate your advice, but the nature of your advice also seems like an attack, and I would like to ask you to refrain from attacking me for trying to do what's best for my tank.

Thanks for your concern though.

 

[JohnPaul]

I'm sorry you felt you were being attacked, Elaine. I think it's safe to say that is never the intention of anyone here; if anything, NJ was probably just frustrated that someone (you) had to have a disaster because of bad advice from a lfs...it is a pattern that we see over & over & over again.

Here are a few random thoughts about your situation, gleaned partially from my own experience and partially from what research I have done...

-- sadly, most things you hear from employees at lfs's is far from "professional" advice. If your lfs is a chain store (Petco, PetSmart, etc.) the advice is almost guaranteed to be wrong; if it is a mom & pop store, my experience has been the odds on the advice being good are around 50/50. But as a general rule, never act solely on the advice of what someone in a pet store tells you--listen to what they say, then double-check their advice online. If you can find 2 or 3 or 4 websites that say the same thing, then you are *reasonably* certain that you can act on the advice. The fact that your lfs employee to put the tabs directly in the tank, even though the packaging says it is designed for use with a CO2 injector system, immediately raises a big red flag.

-- my understanding of cardinal tetras is that they like soft, acidic water. So adding coral (or anything else) that raises pH might be better for your plants, but it is going to be worse for your cardinals. You can do what you want, but in general, I think it's much better to do what is best for your fish, and if that ends up being bad for your plants, then choose different plants that are a better match for your fish.

-- simply disturbing the gravel in your tank should not have had an impact on your cycle. Though you did not talk about the cycling situation much (just a bit in the opening paragraph), I am wondering if that did not have a greater impact on all of this than we realize. When you had the fish deaths, did you test the water? Whenever I have a fish death for any reason whatsoever, the *first* thing I do is a complete water test: temp, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. Since CO2 seems to be an issue, I would also at that moment test GH and KH, from which you can calculate the CO2 level. If you are worried about plant and/or algae issues, a phosphate test is in order as well.

-- in general, if a tank is not fully cycled (i.e. if readings for ammonia and nitrite are anything but zero), it is best to not add any new fish or any new plants. An established system can much more easily handle something new than a system still trying to find its balance.

-- if your local water is well water, I am 99.99% certain it has plenty of iron to grow aquarium plants. If it is surface water, I would still test it before adding an iron supplement. (Iron test kits are available at lfs's or online.)

-- I don't recall ever having heard anyone say anything positive about chemicals designed to "clear up" the water. In general, cloudy water will clear of its own as a result of settling and filtering, plus water changes. Even when a chemical agent works, it is not "solving" the problem...only masking it for the time being. Despite the ugly appearance, it is far better to let the cloudiness remain and work on addressing the root problem that is causing the cloudiness to begin with. (I am working with this personally...a week ago my water was so cloudy, I could not see 4" into my tank! It was like the fish were swimming in milk almost. Today, tank is nearly perfectly clear.)

-- in looking for reasons for plant deaths in a planted aquarium, first suspect is always lighting. Exactly what wattage bulb (and what type) do you have, and exactly what aquarium plants, and do any of the lower-level plants get shaded from the light by the higher-level plants? Once you are sure your lighting is adequate, then it is time to look at CO2, and after CO2, trace elements.

-- it seems as if the relationship between algae and plant growth in a planted tank is quite a complex one, but again, from what I have read a lot depends the ratio of nitrates to phosphates. (Not the absolute amounts, but the ratio.) I am sure others can address this far better than I.

-- In general, any attempts to manipulate pH add an extra complicating factor to aquarium care. (Note: extra complicating factor = extra chance of something going wrong and resulting in fish deaths.) If it were my tank, I would leave the pH where it is, and choose plants with lighting (and thus CO2) demands that would match my water "as is." Again, that's just me, but it's something to think about.


Anyway, that's all I can think of for now. The more hard numbers you can provide, the more likely people here will be able to help you. When dealing with a planted tank, knowing things like the nitrate and phosphate levels in the water really can make a big difference.

 

[NJFishman]

trust me, im not attacking you. Theres alot you need to know though. the first thing being don't ever consider your LFS "professional advice". That's exactly how alot of the problems happen, honestly, you wouldn't believe some of the stuff LFS's have told people. Tell me this, what is your water pH before anything was added or is. second what is the gH and kH, third if possible how much CO2 is in the tank. Don't take me as an attacker, im not, text only comes one way so it is always open to interpretation, but if you heard me I wouldn't be yelling. I apoligize for the misunderstanding.

 

[JohnPaul]

Sorry, realized I didn't answer your main question (about whether you should do a water change.)

I think the answer to that depends upon your levels of ammonia and nitrite. If you have either of those above 0.25 ppm, I would do a substantial water change once every 24 hours until the numbers drop.

If you suspect (as some do on this forum) that it was CO2 poisoning, then the thing you want to do is immediately get more O2 into the water by upping your filter to max flow (more surface agitation) and putting in an airstone or two, also on max flow (if you can control air flow). That will be more effective at getting in O2 and removing CO2 than a water change.

 

[BrianNY]

Yeppers Elaine. Alot of what you're going through I went through more than two years ago (including the CO2 fizz tabs). It comes under the heading, a little information can hurt you.

Growing plants with high light (and I consider 2wpg high), is one of the trickier things to accomplish. The lighting without proper levels of CO2 will cause significant algae problems. Anything done as a quick fix is likely to be harmful to the fish or plants or both. That includes adjusting the pH, or adding ferts. What JohnPaul and NJ said is true. You can raise cardinals and loaches in a planted tank, but you need to know the chemical dynamics of your aquarium first.

There's an article in the articles section written by Mark Lehr. It's good place to start and gain a handle on pH stability. Above all, having a succesfull aquarium is as much about patience as knowledge. All of us here on AA want you to succeed.