Mini cycle after upgrade, possible causes?

[papa_bear_21]

Ok, so as some of you may know, I upgraded from a 29 to a 55 gallon tank, and things were going well. After an incident with one of my kids, things seems to have started to go south. I am not sure if the amount of stress zyme that was poured into the account, or the amount of gravel we have is a cause, but we are experiencing a mini cycle, with some loss of fish. Ammonia has spiked to ~1 and nitrites has started to spike up to ~3 or so. I know why we are losing the fish, my main concern is the reason for the cycle. Is it that I dont have enough gravel, as we only have enough for a 29 gallon tank (~25 pounds)? Could the excessive amount of stress zyme added have caused a biological die off, creating an excessive amount of ammonia? We were feeding 2 times a day, 1 in the morning, and one at nite. The worst hit after we added a frozen worm pack, could that have been the cause?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Bear

P.S. I have more gravel to add, ~10 pounds...I know its not enough, but it will be a good start

 

[Zagz]

I don't know if the stress zyme could have caused the mini-cycle. But going from a 29 to a 55 very well could have. The beneficial bacteria that a 29 needs to keep cycled is much less than a 55 gal takes to keep cycled. Keep doing water changes and you hould be fine. Adding more substrate is a necessity as well.

 

[papa_bear_21]

we're going to slowly add the substrate, so as not to totally send everything out of whack...water change will be done tonite, and hoping to not lose anymore fish, as I have already lost most of my guppies, one of my rasbora's, my clown pleco, and a few others

 

[Zagz]

Geez I am so sorry for your losses.

 

[papa_bear_21]

well, fortunately, we havent lost any of the babies, we still have the baby mollie (the only one who survived), the baby guppies, the loaches, the other 2 plecos and the glass cats...even tho we did lose the 2 yoyo loaches...

so far, the platy's who survived the first tank incident are still with us...they are some tough fish...

 

[Sicklid]

It won't hurt to add the substrate all at once, it takes about fifteen hours for the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite to double as a general rule. They are slow growers. You can put in all the substrate you want... The bacteria really grows on everything; the glass, gravel, decorations, etc.

You can add Prime to the water at five times the normal dose to help a high nitrite emergency situation, half that if you are past the ammonia spike. It prohibits the fish's uptake of nitrite.

Sorry to hear about the trouble.

 

[papa_bear_21]

Changed 75% of the water this morning, added the ten pounds of gravel we had purchased, and added our decorations back in. We built a little cave like area with some rainbow rock and driftwood, so far everyone likes it. We will be adding more gravel, and possibly a slate cave, in the coming week. Once we get the gravel to the proper level, and the cycle is complete, we will begin to plan our restocking. Very likely, another dwarf pleco, and some other fish. Would a ghost knife do well in a tank like this? or should I forego him until we can setup a tank specifically for him?

 

[Lance M.]

You should most likely wait until you can setup a tank specifically for the ghost knife fish. They get big, need lots of hiding places, and can eat small fish.

Edit: FYI I just read some reports that they can seem to be doing fine with their tankmates then the tankmates end up missing or with wounds and missing eyes.

 

[papa_bear_21]

ok, I appreciate the help, thank you lance

 

[papa_bear_21]

ok, so now I'm starting to go into save the fish mode, as we seem to be losing more and more fish on a regular basis, it averages about 1 a day. We didnt have this problem the last time, could there maybe be an underlying cause? None of them seem to show signs of ich, or any other illness, the only signs we see are the clamped fins and laying on the bottom of the tank. Could this be from the parameters out of whack, or is there something else? I am at a loss, my nitrites are staying at roughly ~.5, change the water and test ~12 hours later. Ammonia is ~.25 to .5, tested at the same time. We added the gravel, I have some ammonia packs in the AC filters, but I am getting close to taking them out, as they dont really appear to be helping. Other than water changes, and the Prime dosing, does anyone have any suggestions? I dont want to lose anymore fish, let alone my loaches or pleco's...

All tips are welcome, more gravel will be added wednesday or thursday, but likely wednesday...I am hoping for the best, but running out of ideas.

 

[evercl92]

You should most likely wait until you can setup a tank specifically for the ghost knife fish. They get big, need lots of hiding places, and can eat small fish.

Edit: FYI I just read some reports that they can seem to be doing fine with their tankmates then the tankmates end up missing or with wounds and missing eyes.

I've not found this a concern with my BGK. For one, they are very slow growers, so a smaller one would be fine for a 55gal for a long while. Mine only 'hides' during the day, snuggling up in my giant java fern. At night, he's all over the place. It didn't bother these small (about 1/2inch) guyana tetras that I bought a while back, but I assume he's the culprit of snacking some of the new cardinals that I got, that were about 3/4in. Either the BKG or the boesemani rainbows...

My BGK used to be picky about what he eats, bloodworms and brine shrimp. Now he'll eat everything from frozen foods, spirolina and regular flakes, etc.

If you want ammonia and nitrites gone,
1. do 25% water change daily
2. gravel vac to get rid of decaying / rotting material
3. add fast growing plants, and a lot of them
4. don't remove 'ammonia packs' just yet. Even though they don't seem to be helping, there's a pretty good chance they've provided area for beneficial bacteria to grow on, and you don't wan to get rid of those at this time
5. don't feed frozen food until this clears up. Stick with flake food, and feed sparingly. Be sure to clean up any left over food, so it doesn't spoil.

 

[Sicklid]

I really think with the symptoms you are describing (clamped fins, ammonia reading, etc.) you are experiencing the dreaded toxicity of the nitrites and ammonia.

The following article is about Koi, but it helps to understand about nitrite poisoning:

http://www.koiquest.co.uk/nitrite.htm

You have a touchy situation... I would actually cut back on the large water changes, maybe limit them to 5% a day. You can not rush the production of those bacteria colonies and when you do large changes like that, I believe you are upsetting the balance more than helping unfortunately. For instance, my tap water actually has quite high nitrite readings right out of the faucet! And if you are removing the ammonia, it would lead me to guess that you are limiting the nitrobacters' food source perhaps? I am not sure since you are getting some ammonia readings. Test kits are not always super accurate either...

Do you have a mature filter from another tank? That really would be your best bet right now, if you you could throw that filter on there...

 

[7Enigma]

You have a touchy situation... I would actually cut back on the large water changes, maybe limit them to 5% a day. You can not rush the production of those bacteria colonies and when you do large changes like that, I believe you are upsetting the balance more than helping unfortunately.

This is horrible advice. Please keep up on your water changes (using Prime) as needed, feed sparingly, and make sure the temp of the water you are adding (and the tank water) is staying consistent. The damage to the fish may already be done regardless of the water changes done now, so that may be responsible for the deaths you are seeing with relatively safe water conditions.

Established media is your best bet to quickly finish this mini-cycle, but I would guess you would have added that already if you had it. Stick to the PWC's and ride out this tough situation.

 

[SparKy697]

I think it has been well established that when you have a toxic level of anything in your tank, the best and sometimes only way to correct it is to dilute it via water changes. For my taste I do not even get the hose out for less than a 50% PWC. Remember the water normally does not hold the majority of beneficial bacteria needed.

Consider holding off any more substrate additions while you are getting things sorted out. If you are covering your existing substrate with fresh material, you may be be adding to your problems. The bacteria that you are trying to grow are aerobic and do not take kindly to being suffocated under new substrate. This may not be as much of a problem in an established tank, but you are at a stage where you need all you can get.

The damage has most likely already been done to the fish. All you can do now is to keep those levels down and ride it out. It's probably safe to say that you are looking at what equates to a new tank. I would stop making many changes at once, get some new seed material from your LFS if you can, and things will get better.

One other thought is to try getting your hands on some bio-spira. I have never used it myself but in some cases it seems to work.

 

[papa_bear_21]

We plan to keep up with the water changes, in excess of 50%, usually in the 75% range. We do a gravel vac every time, but while we're in this cycle, we try to not disturb the substrate too much, sucking up the major stuff on the surface, is this a good idea or would a full deep vac be better?

As far as feeding, we cut back from 2 times a day to pellets at nite, and flakes in the morning. We havent changed anything in the filter, except for a new sponge in the AC50, as the old one was falling apart. I havent been adding veggies the last week or so, as I didnt want that to add to the problem.

When we add substrate, and I know this may be worse than not adding it at all, we mix it in. We lay it on top, then mix it up, to keep the color as consistant, and to try not to kill off the bacteria colony. If this is making matters worse, we will wait to add the rest.

I do have one question, regarding testing. We use an API FW master kit, and when we test for nitrites, it turns its nice ugly purple color. The next day, and sometimes several hours later, its back to blue. Can anyone explain a possible cause for this, this confuses me, as I have never seen this reaction before.

Thank you to all for the advice, and help, I appreciate every last bit. Thank you again for the advice about the BGK, that is one of my favorite fish, and I would like to get another one someday...

Bear

 

[Sicklid]

WHOOPS sorry guys!!! I was actually giving advice for a fish-less cycle!!! I apologize, Papa Bear!

For anyone else researching this, when you cycle a tank without fish and are having these problems THAT is when water changes make it harder to cycle... eesh, I am feeling dumb!

 

[papa_bear_21]

no worries, I'll admit, it seemed odd that one would recommend that...but trust me, no hurt feelings here, if we never made a mistake, they'd call us Linux...LOL

 

[7Enigma]

I do have one question, regarding testing. We use an API FW master kit, and when we test for nitrites, it turns its nice ugly purple color. The next day, and sometimes several hours later, its back to blue. Can anyone explain a possible cause for this, this confuses me, as I have never seen this reaction before.

Bear

Are you saying you leave the liquid in the test tube and after a couple hours it turns a different color? If so you should wash out the tubes with tap water right after completing the test otherwise residue could build up on the tubes (I accidentially forgot about a phosphate test for a couple hours and had to throw out the tube due to this).

As for your question it could be a host of things. Oxidation, light, etc. Bottom line is for all tests you want to view the color chart at the appropriate time (between 3 and 5 min depending on the AP tests). To take the values before or after that time will make them inaccurate.

HTH

 

[papa_bear_21]

We review the tests in the 3-5 minute mark after the mix is complete. It's weird that after a few hours its back to blue. The tank seems to be getting better, as I dont have the smell I've noticed comes with a nitrite spike, the ammonia like smell (which is odd, as I would figure that would accompany an ammonia spike...). We havent lost any fish in a day or 2, so thats a plus. We still have the 2 plec's, the 3 dojo's, I believe the 3 khuli's are still there but am not 100% on that, the 2 black skirts, 3 rasboras total, 2 platys I think, 2 glass cats, and possibly a snail...