Moved fish: have major probs with ammonia and cloudy water!!

[techiegirl]

ok I know their is already a post with a similar prob, but to make this specific to my situation and not hijack the other person's thread here is my situation....
I got a tank from someone last Friday.
It is a 55 gal FW with 2 8-10 inch Oscars (yes I have already been yelled at in another foum for it not being a big enough tank and I will get something else, but I was just transferring them to my place for now.)
The O's are 2 years old and the previous owner kept up with the maintenance til 9 months ago when his wife had a baby. About 6 months ago he stopped gravel vaccing and I am not sure if he was doing water changes.
So when I got the tank, there was a brown sludge on the bottom in the gravel along with tons of debris. The filters were also clogged with sludge.
It has an Emperor twin biowheel.
So I cleaned the tank and gravel and put in new filters except for the biowheels which I left alone.
Tank ran fine on the weekend and got an ammonia spike Monday of 1.0
Did a water change - 5 gal and no change...
Since then, the ammonia has spiked to 4-8 WITH water changes.
I changed 10 gal yesterday... 15 gal this afternoon and 15 tonight.
The ammonia is not changing! :?
And now the water is VERY murky/cloudy.

What have I done????

I rinsed the filters for the first time tonight in RO water - they were very messy and didn't smell so good.
I put Ammo-Lock in for now.
What do I do???
The fish are acting fine.
Oh and I stopped feeding them yesterday and have completely vaccuumed the gravel of all debris.
HELP!!!

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

It sounds like you're having another mini-cycle due to all the cleaning. That, added to such a large bio load doesn't help, either. The good news is that the fish are in a better home now and this problem can be fixed with a little time and a lot of work on your part.

You're on the right track: water changes are the way to fix this problem. I'd step up to about 25-30% every day (test the ammonia and nitrites before and after each change). If that doesn't drop the ammonia to a safer level, increase the % until you do start to see changes.

The cloudy/murky water is probably due to the ammonia- or it could be caused by a bacterial bloom. Either way, it'll clear up in time.

Continue to feed your fish, but be careful not to overfeed. Don't vacuum the gravel, either (this'll make the cycling process take longer).

Hang in there: you can get this under control!

Hope this helps-
Steven

 

[kenor33]

good advice Voodoo ummm even I didn't think about NOT vacuuming the gravel during a cycle. learn something new everyday. I got my fingers crossed for ya Techiegirl Oscars are one of my favorites and just started a Oscar tank myself.

 

[techiegirl]

Thank you Voodoo!! For the advice and encouragement!
ok I did a 50% water change yesterday and it dropped the ammonia from 8 to 4 -- the first noticeable change! And I added Ammo-Lock.
Today it's back up to 8 and am about to do another 50% change.
I stopped vaccuuming the gravel for now too.
Last night I went and got an Aquaclear 500 - so I am running both that and the Emperor now.
Good news is that the water is clearing up!!

And thank you kenor33 for the encouragement as well!! It is VERY much appreciated.

2 questions:
- Can I change the Emperor filter pads now or will that mess with the cycling? OR should I just rinse them real well in the water I remove?
- I read somewhere that adding water from an established tank will help establish the biofilter. I have a 10 gal that is due for it's 20-25% water change. Would it help to add the water I remove? Minus the debris I suck out of the gravel of course.

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

If you NEED to change the pads in the Emperor (because they're clogged up), take them out and gently rinse them in a bucket of water you've taken from the tank. If they're still functioning well, don't bother them.

There are some bio bugs present in the water and it might help a bit to add some established tank water to this tank, but you'd be even better off to take a handful of the substrate from your ten and adding that to the 55.

Once those bio-bugs begin to establish themselves, you'll see a decrease in the ammonia levels and an increase in nitrites- so be on the lookout. I'm not sure if you're testing for that already but it'd be a good idea to start.

Good luck!

 

[techiegirl]

If you NEED to change the pads in the Emperor (because they're clogged up), take them out and gently rinse them in a bucket of water you've taken from the tank. If they're still functioning well, don't bother them.

There are some bio bugs present in the water and it might help a bit to add some established tank water to this tank, but you'd be even better off to take a handful of the substrate from your ten and adding that to the 55.

Once those bio-bugs begin to establish themselves, you'll see a decrease in the ammonia levels and an increase in nitrites- so be on the lookout. I'm not sure if you're testing for that already but it'd be a good idea to start.

Good luck!

I rinsed the filters rather then replace them for now - they seems better, altho how do you know if they aren't working?
I will try what you suggest and add some of the gravel from my 10 gal to it.
I have done 25 gal/day water changes since Thursday.
I am measuring all water params.
The NH4 is still at 8 - it goes down to 4 after the water change but is back up to 8 the next day. I am using Ammo-Lock.
The nitrites were at 0.25 a coulpe of days ago and they are now at 0
Nitrates are 5-10
pH has dropped gradually from 7.4 to 6.2
I have been adding Stresszyme for added bio.
I have Cycle but stopped using it - it would be overload when I am using Stresszyme yes?
Not sure what to do at this point.
Any ideas?
Is this ever going to get better??

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

You'll know if the filter pads need replaced/rinsed when water doesn't flow through them and the filter box "backs up". When they do get to this point, simply rinse them out in the water you've pulled from water changes and pop them back in. You can do this over and over- until they finally get too clogged to rinse out. This'll save you a lot of money and is a good idea since lots of bio-bugs form on the pads.

The two main reasons you're having trouble controlling the ammonia is the fact that the tank is not cycled and you've got two large waste machines in it! Those oscars produce lots of poop (I wonder if the word-police software allows "poop"?) which is turned into ammonia- so this is something you'll always need be aware of.

I'd increase the daily water changes to about 30-40% (you're gonna have HUGE arm muscles by the time this is over). This may also help keep your pH up, which is a good thing.

Depending on the brand/type of test kit you're using, it's possible that the Ammo-Lock is skewing the test results.

Looking at your test results, I'd say you're still in the initial stages of cycling. Although nitrates are the end result of cycling, I'd bet the levels you're detecting are from your tap water and not part of the process. The minimal levels of nitrites is also another indicator that you're still at the beginning. Once the ammonia drops and stays down, you should start to see a spike in the nitrite levels. That's just as dangerous as the ammonia but is a good thing for you, since it'll mean you're half-way there.

It's probably not a bad idea to keep adding the Stresszyme, but I'd forget about the Cycle: that stuff just doesn't do what it says it does.

The only other thing I can think of that'd help is to see if you can track down some Bio-Spira. Otherwise, you're just going to have to do this the old fashioned way. It WILL get better- although I couldn't say exactly how long it's going to take. Cycling a tank with two ten inch oscars is serious business and about as extreme a situation as it gets. Hang in there!

 

[techiegirl]

thanks for the filter info!!

I'd increase the daily water changes to about 30-40% (you're gonna have HUGE arm muscles by the time this is over). This may also help keep your pH up, which is a good thing.

But I am already doing 50 % changes. :? Hey at least it's excerice right? hehe

Depending on the brand/type of test kit you're using, it's possible that the Ammo-Lock is skewing the test results.

FYI, I use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master Test Kit. That is good to know the results may be incorrect.

Looking at your test results, I'd say you're still in the initial stages of cycling. Although nitrates are the end result of cycling, I'd bet the levels you're detecting are from your tap water and not part of the process.

Except I am adding RO, not tap -- would that have nitrates? I thought I had tested and it was 0 -- I will test again.

ok, I will keep up with the water changes and adding the Stresszyme and Ammo-Lock.
I put some of my 10 gallon aquarium's gravel in it last night - hoping to get some good bacteria going. The O's had a blast with the new gravel - mixing it all in - lol They are quite the characters aren't they?! the gravel doesn't matcha nd I HAD been hoping on picking it out later - oh well! lol

I have not heard of Bio-Spira.... I just read up about it http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biospira.asp
that sounds really good!!! Maybe I will look into getting some of that.

Thanks so much!! I really am trying to make this work and it really helps to have such encouragement!!
Thank you much!!
My O's thank you too!!

 

[kenor33]

well if you find any Bio-Spira, put me down for some will PAY.

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

Boy howdy- this one wasn't as easy as I thought it'd be...

I guess I either missed (or forgot) some of the info in your first posts: I've re-read them and have a couple of Q's for you.

Is there anything wrong with your tap water that makes you use RO water instead?

How are the fish acting? Do they seem fine, or are do they show signs of illness or stress/discomfort? How are their diets?

I'm not familiar with the filter you mention- I'm a strict Millenium man, myself. Do you know how many GPH it pushes?

Have you been testing the nitrites regularly? If so, what's the trend with those been the past few days? I'm curious because I just noticed in one of your post that you had a reading of .25 and then it went to zero: is it still at zero? Also, I don't think you're adding nitrates to your tank via RO water (although you may want to test it just to make certain of this).

What does all this babbling mean? If you had nitrite levels earlier and don't have them now AND you're seeing detectable levels of nitrates (and aren't adding them with the RO water), that means your tank HAS cycled. With that being said, the high levels of ammonia could mean that your oscars are making lots of waste (which we know for certain) and perhaps the filtration is either not sufficient enough to handle the load and/or not operating properly. Like I said, that theory is contingent on the answers to some of the questions I've asked. If I'm off-base, we'll start over and look at it from a different angle.

 

[techiegirl]

OMG I thought I had answered this!! 8O Sorry!! :? ok to answer your q's..

Is there anything wrong with your tap water that makes you use RO water instead?

I was told to buy water from the lfs so that's what I did. I have since stopped and started using Amquel+ to treat the tap water as it has ammonia (0.25)

How are the fish acting? Do they seem fine, or are do they show signs of illness or stress/discomfort? How are their diets?

they act totally fine. No signs of stress. I am feeding them 5-6 Hikari pellets each per day -- sometimes skipping a day. Once a week I am giving them 6-8 Hikari krill each instead of the pellets.

I'm not familiar with the filter you mention- I'm a strict Millenium man, myself. Do you know how many GPH it pushes?

The AquaClear 500 pushes 500 GPH

Have you been testing the nitrites regularly? If so, what's the trend with those been the past few days? I'm curious because I just noticed in one of your post that you had a reading of .25 and then it went to zero: is it still at zero? Also, I don't think you're adding nitrates to your tank via RO water (although you may want to test it just to make certain of this).

What does all this babbling mean? If you had nitrite levels earlier and don't have them now AND you're seeing detectable levels of nitrates (and aren't adding them with the RO water), that means your tank HAS cycled. With that being said, the high levels of ammonia could mean that your oscars are making lots of waste (which we know for certain) and perhaps the filtration is either not sufficient enough to handle the load and/or not operating properly. Like I said, that theory is contingent on the answers to some of the questions I've asked. If I'm off-base, we'll start over and look at it from a different angle.

I have been testing the nitrites and ammonia daily. The rest every other day.
No nitrates in the tap water and I am getting them in the tank.
Here are my params:
NH4 = 8 (50% water change drops it to 4 but it's back to 8 the next day.
NO2 = 0 right now (it goes to 0.25 and then back to 0 -there has never been a spike) --edited Sun nite: it is at 1.0 now-the most it has ever been.
NO3 = 10
pH = 7.4

I have been using ammolock since the levels are so high.
I also have been adding stresszyme daily to help re-establish the biofilter.
I also added the sponge from my 10 gal in hopes that would stimulate something!
So you think the cycle is complete even without the spike? I don't know if there was supposed to be a spike in a re-established tank. Remember I am not starting completely new - but the only things we re-used were the 2 biowheels. The filters were replaced and the gravel cleaned.
Let me know what you think when you get a chance.