My Angelfish Fry

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guppygourami

Aquarium Advice FINatic
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
686
Location
Ontario, Canada
Hey everyone,

Since my angels have been spawning a lot recently I decided to create this thread for them. This is their first batch of fry that got to the free swimming stage (we used to have other fish)
The eggs, laid Thursday, May 5, 2016 and hatched the following Saturday (7th). ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1463090607.116064.jpg

unfortunately the danios got to them before we could do anything but there are still around 60-70 left :)

With their parents
ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1463090522.812117.jpg

I've been feeding them Hikari First Bites, egg yolk and have an infusoria culture growing. Any foods you'd recommend besides brine shrimp? Can't get a hold of those at the moment.

Mira


<g.m.t.a>
 
I don't really want to start anything or make you have bad feelings but the lighter colored fish is really deformed and should not be a breeder if you are trying to make a quality fish. That trait is genetic and will be passed down to the offspring. If money is an issue, you will be spending a lot of it on fry that you should not be selling , giving away or carrying forth as a potential breeder for the future. Even the good fry ( the ones without the deformity) will carry the gene for that and that's what the folks here on the site, following my suggestions and lead, are trying to get OUT of the hobby ( Fish carrying bad genes.) I urge you to discontinue breeding that fish for the betterment of the Angelfish line. Sorry for being so blunt but these fish are what's wrong with the hobby not what's right with it. :(
 
I don't really want to start anything or make you have bad feelings but the lighter colored fish is really deformed and should not be a breeder if you are trying to make a quality fish. That trait is genetic and will be passed down to the offspring. If money is an issue, you will be spending a lot of it on fry that you should not be selling , giving away or carrying forth as a potential breeder for the future. Even the good fry ( the ones without the deformity) will carry the gene for that and that's what the folks here on the site, following my suggestions and lead, are trying to get OUT of the hobby ( Fish carrying bad genes.) I urge you to discontinue breeding that fish for the betterment of the Angelfish line. Sorry for being so blunt but these fish are what's wrong with the hobby not what's right with it. :(


Nono I understand. This whole breeding thing is just for before I start highschool and get all busy with work. I highly doubt it'll be a permanent thing or that I'll ever settle on being a breeder, if that helps. It's just for now, we actually had no idea they were a male and female until a few months ago.


<g.m.t.a>
 
Nono I understand. This whole breeding thing is just for before I start highschool and get all busy with work. I highly doubt it'll be a permanent thing or that I'll ever settle on being a breeder, if that helps. It's just for now, we actually had no idea they were a male and female until a few months ago.


<g.m.t.a>
I'm not trying to pick on you but as a professional in the fish business, I would like to lay out a scenario or two for you and others reading this (and may be contemplating doing what you are doing) that has been happening for many years and brought us to the poor state of the Angelfish today.
Have you thought about what you are going to do with those 60 or 70 fry you have left once they reach a size where they will overcrowd the tank and the parents? Even if you cull all the bad ones and say that's 50% of the fry, you would still be left with 30-35 fish. Do you have enough space in your tank(s) to house that many fish? Probably not. So you might be tempted to take the good looking ones to a LFS and offer them to the store. Let's say the store accepts them but they don't know that the fish have the genetic defect of the parent in them and I seriously doubt they would ask you if they did have any issues because the fish look great. Right? ;) So the store then sells those fish to others and now they grow up in someone else's tank and start to breed with another fish in their tank(s). Now you've spread the defect to more fish which the new person will most likely try to do the same thing as you did and sell off the fish to a store and now others will also be effected and the gene lives on.
OR, because you have some integrity and don't want to see the first scenario happen, you offer the fish to a friend or 2 or 3. Now they have the fish with the bad gene and because Angels are such prolific breeders and not as choosy as they should be, now these little ones have matured and have paired off and started spawning and your friend now talks to someone who suggests that they sell the fry to a store even tho you told the people that the fish has a genetic flaw. They just see a financial opportunity to help pay for their hobby ( and in turn, you've created the first scenario anyway.)

Then there's the heartache issue. Euthanasia is a tough subject for some. They don't want to cull because it's a living thing. So what that it's deformed!! :facepalm: So now you have even more fish with the deformity or the gene for the deformity hitting the market and being perpetuated, knowingly and unknowingly, by even more people.
OR, they may feel that they spent a lot of time and care and love on the deformed fish that they want to do everything they can to make the fish live out it's natural life and conduct itself "normally" even if that means breeding it with another fish when the right thing for the specie is to euthanize it/them. And what about how much money they have spent on the fish? :facepalm::blink:

So you see how this can get out of hand? It just takes 1 breeder or 1 batch of bad fish to create a whole line of bad fish. :( That's what has happened to today's Angelfish. It has gone from a strong healthy line to a weak, fragile line that is filled with bad genetics and deformities. If you think I'm wrong, go ask any LFS that has been around more than 20+ years. I guarantee you they will say the same thing. I heard it in all the pet shops I visited when I drove across the country. It's in every state in the U.S. I doubt that Canada doesn't have the same issue. :nono:

FYI: Scenario #1 is an actual account of what happened back in the 1980s after the first wave of "Angelfish aids" hit the U.S. Unscrupulous breeders felt they had to do this in order to keep making money after they lost their breeders to the disease. It took years before they were finally driven out of business. ( I know this because I knew some of them personally.:whistle:)


So again, I implore you to discontinue breeding this fish and euthanize the fry now before you have much invested in them. If you want to let the parents continue to spawn, just remove the slate with the eggs and feed them to your other fish. They will provide a better food source than quality fish. If you want to continue breeding better fish, replace the deformed fish with another one that does not show any deformities. You will only know if that new fish has any defects when you see the fry. A higher percentage of deformed fry means 1 or both of the breeders does. THAT, sadly, is the way of fish breeding today. :(
 
Didnt read this.

Cool fish though. Been wanting to breed angels for some time but could not find a breeding pair.


I'm not trying to pick on you but as a professional in the fish business, I would like to lay out a scenario or two for you and others reading this (and may be contemplating doing what you are doing) that has been happening for many years and brought us to the poor state of the Angelfish today.

Have you thought about what you are going to do with those 60 or 70 fry you have left once they reach a size where they will overcrowd the tank and the parents? Even if you cull all the bad ones and say that's 50% of the fry, you would still be left with 30-35 fish. Do you have enough space in your tank(s) to house that many fish? Probably not. So you might be tempted to take the good looking ones to a LFS and offer them to the store. Let's say the store accepts them but they don't know that the fish have the genetic defect of the parent in them and I seriously doubt they would ask you if they did have any issues because the fish look great. Right? ;) So the store then sells those fish to others and now they grow up in someone else's tank and start to breed with another fish in their tank(s). Now you've spread the defect to more fish which the new person will most likely try to do the same thing as you did and sell off the fish to a store and now others will also be effected and the gene lives on.

OR, because you have some integrity and don't want to see the first scenario happen, you offer the fish to a friend or 2 or 3. Now they have the fish with the bad gene and because Angels are such prolific breeders and not as choosy as they should be, now these little ones have matured and have paired off and started spawning and your friend now talks to someone who suggests that they sell the fry to a store even tho you told the people that the fish has a genetic flaw. They just see a financial opportunity to help pay for their hobby ( and in turn, you've created the first scenario anyway.)



Then there's the heartache issue. Euthanasia is a tough subject for some. They don't want to cull because it's a living thing. So what that it's deformed!! :facepalm: So now you have even more fish with the deformity or the gene for the deformity hitting the market and being perpetuated, knowingly and unknowingly, by even more people.

OR, they may feel that they spent a lot of time and care and love on the deformed fish that they want to do everything they can to make the fish live out it's natural life and conduct itself "normally" even if that means breeding it with another fish when the right thing for the specie is to euthanize it/them. And what about how much money they have spent on the fish? :facepalm::blink:



So you see how this can get out of hand? It just takes 1 breeder or 1 batch of bad fish to create a whole line of bad fish. :( That's what has happened to today's Angelfish. It has gone from a strong healthy line to a weak, fragile line that is filled with bad genetics and deformities. If you think I'm wrong, go ask any LFS that has been around more than 20+ years. I guarantee you they will say the same thing. I heard it in all the pet shops I visited when I drove across the country. It's in every state in the U.S. I doubt that Canada doesn't have the same issue. :nono:



FYI: Scenario #1 is an actual account of what happened back in the 1980s after the first wave of "Angelfish aids" hit the U.S. Unscrupulous breeders felt they had to do this in order to keep making money after they lost their breeders to the disease. It took years before they were finally driven out of business. ( I know this because I knew some of them personally.:whistle:)





So again, I implore you to discontinue breeding this fish and euthanize the fry now before you have much invested in them. If you want to let the parents continue to spawn, just remove the slate with the eggs and feed them to your other fish. They will provide a better food source than quality fish. If you want to continue breeding better fish, replace the deformed fish with another one that does not show any deformities. You will only know if that new fish has any defects when you see the fry. A higher percentage of deformed fry means 1 or both of the breeders does. THAT, sadly, is the way of fish breeding today. :(





Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice
 
Thank you, Andy, for taking the time to write all that out.



Sent via an unladen European Swallow

Unfortunately, many "hobbyists" today don't realize the impact they have with just 1 or 2 fish so I hope this helps tell the story of how it does for generations and generations. I was just on a cross country trip and went into a number of stores in a number of states that, sadly, are selling such poor quality fish. I even went into my old store in NJ and spoke with someone familiar with the store's long history and when I told him how far back my association with the store went ( 50 years now :eek: ) the clerks comment was "Oh, back when the fish were good." That's a sad statement to hear for sure. But this is why I am trying to help by showing the steps it takes to change things. If people would stop buying the deformed fish, the stores would stop selling them. It IS that simple. It just takes time. All the color morphs and new body shapes are the way of the hobby but a deformed fish that shouldn't be deformed to be considered a quality fish should not be offered for sale in my book. THAT, I am very passionate about. :mad:

Hope this helps (y)
 
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