My PPS-Pro experiment

[OneTwoRedBlue]

I decided to start a PPS-Pro dosing scheme in my 40 gallon goldfish tank. I've always had plants in there, but the ones that survived the attentions of the fish never did very well and typically accumulated a lot of algae. Long have I envied the lush, green tanks I've seen online. This is me getting serious about my own.

I thought it would be worthwhile to document the process so I can see how the tank changes from week to week, and log my thoughts and things I learn. Hopefully someone else will get some value out of it too.

For those unfamiliar with PPS-Pro, the essential idea is that very small quantities of dissolved powdered fertilizers are dosed into the tank daily. This way there is never an excess of nutrients and you get a nice stable system with minimal fluctuation. Contrast with Estimative Index where you dose an excess and water change it out every week. In theory PPS-Pro will allow you to skip water changes altogether. Sign me up!


Week #0 (Sat 2016-04-02 setup and Tues 2016-04-05):

I have a bad BBA problem at the moment, it's all over the larger rocks and driftwood, covers much of the plants, and is spreading to the gravel. I hope the daily Excel dosing and greater plant growth will help with this.

This is my setup:
Jebao DP-4 Auto-Dosing pump connected to four bottles, nutrients dosed daily one hour before lights on. I put the nitrogen ferts in a separate bottle to the other macros in case my messy goldfish mean I have to lower the amount of nitrogen.

I'm dosing according to the "low light" plan. I haven't figured out how intense my lighting actually is, so better safe than sorry.
Bottle #1 (Macros - K, P, Mg) (2ml/day @ normal strength)
Bottle #2 (Macros - N) (2ml/day @ normal strength)
Bottle #3 (Micros - CSB+B) (1ml/day @ 1/5th strength - normal strength measured in drops)
Bottle #4 (Excel) (3ml/day)

Here's a photo from Tuesday, after setting up Saturday.

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Week #1 (Weds 2016-04-13, backdated post):
Quite a bit of algae growth this week, man that BBA spreads fast. I also have some GSA and diatoms on the glass.

I think I lost the sword I bought, the fish were nibbling it down to stalks and when I pulled out the basket it came in there were only a few root threads amongst the pebbles.

Tested nitrates - results nominal.

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Week #1.5 (Sat 2016-04-16):

I learned two things this week:
1. PPS-Pro works best with a heavily planted tank. I don't have anywhere near enough plants in there, so I've been buying more at my LFSs and online.

2. Water changes in a non-CO2 injected tank can benefit algae. The water change adds a whole lot of fresh, CO2 rich tap water. The once-weekly jump in CO2 benefits the algae. (This from Tom Barr on another forum) So no more water changes for the time being. They're not required with PPS-Pro anyway.

I found the sword I thought I lost. You can actually see the root cluster caught on the anubias left of centre in week #2. I noticed a tiny little pair of leaves coming from the middle of the barren stalks. That's really promising, it seemed like that plant has been dying since I put it in the tank. I trimmed the stripped stalks, re-planted it and inverted the plastic basket it came in over the top of it to keep the fish away from those deliciously tender baby leaves.

Another beacon of hope - my oldest anubias has sprouted a new leaf! That plant doesn't grow much and is always covered in BBA or GSA. So that must mean something is working The java ferns also have buds sprouting off them. I often see TwoFish getting in there to nibble on them though, which is why I have bought one of their favorite foods today... elodea! I intend it to be a sacrificial plant to keep their appetites sated and give the other plants a chance to fill out some.

Today I planted elodea, cleaned algae off plants and rocks with a toothbrush, trimmed some leaves, and hit BBA on plants and root clusters with hydrogen peroxide. Topped off the water level and upped the Excel from 3ml/day to 4ml/day. Also lowered the light.

Plants bought this week:
2x "assorted sword"
1x "assorted crypt" that turned out to be two
1x hygrophila blue
4x bunches elodea
2x crypt wenditii (not yet shipped)
1x hygrophila corymbosa (not yet shipped)

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Week #2 (Tues 2016-04-19)
Much of this week already covered in #1.5.

Yesterday:

• The elodea I planted got pulled up by the goldfish, I had to re plant it more securely.
• I took a reading of nitrates and phosphates, the phosphates were low so I upped micros from 1ml to 2ml, and non-nitrogen macros from 2ml to 4ml.
• The H2O2 treatment of the BBA made it go a grey/green color. Planning to follow up with another treatment tonight.
• Bought a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter online so I can track nutrient uptake more effectively.

While writing this I received my two crypt wenditii and hygrophila corymbosa, with a bonus water sprite!

One of the swords doesn't look like it's doing so well. A leaf is getting thin spots in it. Pic (with bonus fish):


And the tank shot:

 

[Thrills22]

Some things to consider.

I've never seen or heard of a planted tank "surviving" with goldfish. They are known to consume every aquatic plant in the hobby. But that is just my limited experience and I'm sure others can chime in if there is a way for goldfish and plants to cohabit in your aquarium.

Also a lot of plants require temps that are higher than your goldfish will be comfortable with so keep that in mind. So far it looks great and I'm eager to see how this turns out especially with the goldies + plant combo.

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Some things to consider.

I've never seen or heard of a planted tank "surviving" with goldfish. They are known to consume every aquatic plant in the hobby. But that is just my limited experience and I'm sure others can chime in if there is a way for goldfish and plants to cohabit in your aquarium.

Also a lot of plants require temps that are higher than your goldfish will be comfortable with so keep that in mind. So far it looks great and I'm eager to see how this turns out especially with the goldies + plant combo.

Hi Thrills22, thanks for commenting

It's certainly difficult keeping plants with goldfish, I've been taking a bit of a scattergun approach to plant choices in the hope that something sticks. As far as I see it there are two avenues to success: thick strong leaves that don't taste good and can survive the occasional nip, or prolific plants that grow very quickly.

• Anubias fits the first category and does ok, but is of course very slow.
• Java ferns soldier along but have been succumbing to algae, and TwoFish in particular likes to eat the new shoots before they can make progress. I'm hoping that the ferts, excel, H2O2, and distraction of other plants will help there.
• Elodea/Anacharis invariably gets chomped. I use that as a sacrificial or treat plant. There are several variants, only one of which is approved for sale in New Zealand. Maybe the others grow a bit faster.
• Java moss did well but ended up covered in algae so I threw it out. If I get the algae under control I might get some more. It just makes such a mess.
• Amazon sword struggled and got eaten before I started fertilizing.
• Crypts - just got some, we'll see how they do
• Vallisneria - haven't tried it, meant to be good
• Duckweed - goldfish LOVED it, ate it all. Bright green poop everywhere. May not have reproduced well due to surface current.
• Water sprite - never took off in the past, possibly a fert issue. Fingers crossed this time.

Re: temperature it's an unheated tank in an office with air conditioning. Might get chilly in winter at night and over weekends, we'll have to see. Could always get a heater to keep it at 20-22 deg C if it becomes a real problem. I'll happily plant the whole tank with one or two types of plant if I can find one that will work year-round and hold up against the goldfish assault (e.g. vallisneria spiralis)

 

[Fresh2o]

I concur with the challenge of goldfish and plants. It can be done with the right kind of plants.
The stem plants should be planted separately and not in bunches. But those often end up on the goldfish menu.
The crypts and swords are heavy root feeders.
I'm thinking that there is too much light in that tank (causing the algae issues).


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[Delapool]

Following along to see how it is fine. I don't think I ever managed it

On some of my stem plants I've grouped them as well. I knows it's wrong but they seem to survive better as a thicket.

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Thanks for the interest guys

I've never been sure whether it would be classed as a high, medium or low light tank. The lighting is a 29W Aqua One EcoGlo LED that is allegedly equivalent to 2x T8 bulbs. I run it from 8am to 5pm, but the lights in the office would be on past 8pm, and possibly to 10 or even later.

The tank used to be in a much brighter spot - it was on the top floor about 2m away from the exterior glass wall. The BBA problem started up there. Maybe the light levels are ok now but the algae is too tough to go away without a more aggressive approach.

I haven't been about to find much info on Aqua One products or LEDs in. How I determine what level of light I have?

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[schpanky]

I think it goes something like..
10-30 PAR is low light
30-60 PAR is medium and
60+ PAR is high light
I've heard that 15-20 PARs is good for a non C02 tank, otherwise algae! Here's a diagram (I was looking at the first chart). Two T8 (strength) at your depth probably medium light?
PAR vs Distance, T5, T12, PC - New Chart - The Planted Tank Forum
Not an expert, but I think a PAR Meter is the easiest way to determine how much light your getting (it's expensive though and I don't think may people do it). I looked on youtube to try to find PAR readings for your specific light but couldn't find any.
In my own limited experience I've found 15 PAR to be sufficient for all my low light plants. Still needed to add C02 of some sort, ultimately.

BTW Great thread!!!

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

I think it goes something like..
10-30 PAR is low light
30-60 PAR is medium and
60+ PAR is high light
I've heard that 15-20 PARs is good for a non C02 tank, otherwise algae! Here's a diagram (I was looking at the first chart). Two T8 (strength) at your depth probably medium light?
PAR vs Distance, T5, T12, PC - New Chart - The Planted Tank Forum
Not an expert, but I think a PAR Meter is the easiest way to determine how much light your getting (it's expensive though and I don't think may people do it). I looked on youtube to try to find PAR readings for your specific light but couldn't find any.
In my own limited experience I've found 15 PAR to be sufficient for all my low light plants. Still needed to add C02 of some sort, ultimately.

I think my tank is 45cm (17.7 in) tall, so looking at the first graph would be about 15 PAR for one T8 bulb. So ~30 PAR for my LED fixture. Which puts me right on the border between low and medium. Currently the fixture is right on the glass, though I do have some little legs that will raise it around 2 inches if I need to get the PAR lower. Thanks for the link, it was really useful! Glad to get some actual data.

I've asked Aqua One for PAR, PPF, and spectrum info through their website's contact form, hopefully they get back to me with something useful.

As for CO2 I'm dosing Flourish Excel at 4ml per day, think that'll be sufficient? I looked at getting a pressurized CO2 system but the cost is prohibitive and there's the issue of space as well - the tank is in the office at the end of a row of desks, I've already got all the PPS stuff crammed into the stand.

BTW Great thread!!!

Thanks! Glad you're enjoying it

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Week #3 (Sat 2016-04-23):
(A bit late getting this up - been busy)

I tested the water today, phosphates at 1ppm, nitrates around 40ppm. I said I wasn't going to do any more water changes back in week 1.5 (introduction of gas-rich tap water benefits algae in a non-CO2 tank), but I want to keep those nitrates under control so I did a gravel vac and took out a little less than 2 gallons worth. I took out another half-bucket and scrubbed the driftwood with a toothbrush to clean off the BBA. The water was black by the time I was done. Gross. But I can see the wood again, yay!

I read about a hydrogen peroxide and Excel "One-Two Punch" by DarkCobra on another forum. Not sure if the rules permit me to link there, but you can find it easily enough through Google. It's meant to really hammer algae, including stuff that has become acclimatized to Excel. I didn't have enough H2O2 to do the whole tank so I did a smaller version in a bucket with the freshly scrubbed driftwood and attached java fern and anubias, along with the two misc. plants I got from the LFS a while back, because they're pretty badly afflicted with BBA. Dosed 12ml H2O2 into the bucket and put the powerheads in there for about 15-20 minutes. Put them back in the tank afterwards and once all the other stuff was done, dosed Excel at 5ml per 10 gallons. Hopefully that keeps it down for a while. I think the BBA has been growing much less lately, though it could be because I keep harassing it. I'll think about doing that "One-Two Punch" to the whole tank.

There might be too much flow in the tank. I have two powerheads at opposite ends, one up high the other down low. Plants tend to work their way loose and accumulate in the middle, plus the fish don't seem to spend much time at the far end of the tank. For the time being I've turned off the smaller powerhead and left the big one on.

The java ferns have had a lot of growth going on and I want to encourage it, so I pruned off the damaged leaves and bare stems. Excited about the growth I'm seeing there, I've had them for ages and they've never grown like they are now On the other hand, the water sprite is still having a hard time accomplishing anything. Not too bothered by that, it's a bit fragile for my liking and it was a freebie anyway.

I pruned the other plants too, a couple of the anubias leaves have been looking anaemic so they've been clipped. I removed some sword leaves that weren't doing so well and added some root tabs for them and the crypts. Here's a picture of one of the sword leaves I removed, anyone know what's going on there?


Also cleaned the glass. A fair bit of diatomous algae and more GSA than I've had before. I have a scraper that made short work of that.

Photos of pre and post clean:

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Some closeups of the java ferns.




OneFish wanted her picture taken


There's some BBA around the roots that I can't seem to get rid of. I've hit it with several H2O2 spot treatments. It's gone a kind of dusty color, not sure if that means it's dying or just damaged.

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Just tested phosphates and nitrates. Phosphates at 2ppm and nitrates at 80. I don't think I can get away with no water changes after all, at least not at current planting levels. The goldfish just produce too much waste. The tank's going to be getting a 90% wc this week anyway because my team is moving floors again, so that'll bring it back down at least temporarily.

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[OneTwoRedBlue]

Week #6 (Sat 2016-05-14)

My team moved to a different floor on Friday 2016-05-06, which meant moving the tank as well. It got a 90% water change in the process.

Growth has been okay, but I'm still having issues with BBA. I've seen a new leaf come through on one of the crypts and a sword, and those long and narrow leafed misc. plants are doing pretty well aside from the BBA covering the old growth.

Today I cleaned the filter and tubes, and did DarkCobra's "One-Two punch" of H2O2 and Excel. The idea is to have a high dose of H2O2, push it all around the tank with high flow (that way none is wasted by just sitting in the water column), and then do a 50% pwc to get levels back down. So I added the smaller powerhead back in, removed the filter media to a bucket of tank water (to prevent die-off of filter bacteria and increase flow) and dosed 1 Tbsp of 6% H2O2 per 10 gallons, which is the same as the recommended 2 Tbsp @ 3%. Did the treatment for 15 minutes while moving the powerheads and filter output around to get good coverage, then took out 50% of the water and dosed 5ml/10gal of Excel. The fish didn't seem to mind at all, they looked quite excited actually

I'm cautiously optimistic about this latest treatment, I'm (slowly) beginning to learn that there's no silver bullet when it comes to algae and fishkeeping in general. I might go in tomorrow to see how it's doing.

As for nutrient levels in the tank, the nitrates just climbed without the water changes. Probably contributes to the algae as well. I've been thinking about turning off the KNO3 and getting some Vallisneria - it's meant to do well with goldfish. Maybe that will help some, we shall see.

Here are some old photos:
Tues 2016-05-03


Mon 2016-05-09


I don't have any from today, I'll put one up on Monday or maybe tomorrow if I go into town to check how that algae treatment went.

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Oh yeah, that photo from Mon 2016-05-09 has an anubias and one of the java ferns missing from their respective rocks. They got dislodged during the 90% water change and I didn't notice until later. They're still alive

 

[Delapool]

Looks nice, I like the layout.

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Looks nice, I like the layout.

Thanks Delapool, I'm excited to see how it looks once it's filled in a bit.

I ordered some more plants online today, expected to arrive late next week.
Hygrophila corymbosa stricta x2
Hygrophila polysperma x2
Twisted vallisneria x3
Java moss x1

Pictures from today


Algae has gone dusty looking. Somehow I don't think I've seen the last of it


And my two lovely fishies, because I often spend more time worrying about how the tank looks rather than appreciating how they look.

 

[OneTwoRedBlue]

Did a water test today around 1pm and the ammonia was at 0.25ppm. I suspect the bio filter took a hit with the combined filter clean and H2O2 tank treatment. Dosed prime immediately, then did a water change after work hours.

Would dying algae contribute to ammonia, or just nitrates?

 

[Caliban07]

Dying bacteria, algae will create ammonia and loss of nitrifying bacteria will lead to spikes in ammonia ,especially with goldfish.


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