My severums are liplocking again.

[Jacky12]

This is the 3rd time in maybe 8 months. These are the ones who recently spawned twice on the glass & ate every egg within 24 hours. I believed they previously laid eggs behind a big rock. I was hoping for a few fry, but never saw any.

I find this liplocking behavior mildly distressing as I’ve read fish can fight that way & hurt one another. But their interactions appear peaceful, no one is yanking or pulling the other. This pair, an orange male & grey green girl, are otherwise inseparable. They live in a tank with 4 much smaller sevs. The big pair ignores the little guys.

It has been suggested to me to separate the male and female in this 125 G with a barricade. I find that prospect as disturbing as viewing the liplocking.

 

[Colin_T]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Lip locking is how some cichlids test their potential partners. If both fish are equal in strength, then they often form a pair and start breeding. If one fish is noticeably weaker, it will be chased from the area. Unfortunately in an aquarium, if one fish is weaker, it can't swim away and often gets bashed.

Your two fish want to breed and do try but are getting frustrated due to the eggs disappearing. Most of the time they learn not to eat eggs or fry but sometimes one party will keep doing it. If they keep eating eggs after 6 batches, then they are unlikely to make a good pair and you should consider finding other partners for them to try breeding with.

 

[Jacky12]

They want to breed? What’s this, a biological imperative like for some woman approaching 45? How would one know if they don’t enjoy going through the motions but are not interested in reproducing? How could one determine if a fish or any other animal is frustrated by vanishing eggs/embryos?

This eating the eggs/fry is common in tanks in my limited experience. I now have 5 peacock offspring of OB parents doing well & ~dozen saulosi cichlids doing fine in another tank. A two inch cichlid I can’t ID was recently spotted in my 90 G mixed African cichlid tank. Several months back I netted a tiny cichlid in the same tank & placed it in a peaceful community tank.

All this suggests to me some fish will produce a few offspring in tanks & others won’t. I am doing nothing to encourage breeding. I wouldn’t know what to do with numerous fish. To me, better they don’t make it than be possibly neglected by others.

I think my Severum pair is content, in so far as it is to evaluate fish contentment.
Now as to other possible pair groupings, do you think one of the 4 young sevs in that tank may pair up with the spawning female further down the road? Or maybe even that the adult male will hook up with a younger female?

 

[Colin_T]

Fish and virtually any animal, bird, or reptile don't need much to reproduce.
A safe place to live, without predators or bullies.
A regular food source.
A plentiful supply of clean water.
Not too many other creatures around to interfere with you and your mate.
No diseases. Diseases generally occur if the environment is overcrowded (like people and new viruses).
A nice temperature.

An aquarium is generally safe, has a nice temperature and few diseases if maintained regularly. There is plenty of food and clean water, and nobody is going to bully or try to eat them.

Simply by providing your fish with a clean safe aquarium to live in, and feeding them, you are providing them with what they need to reproduce.

It's possible that when the younger fish mature, they might pair off with one of the two adults and form a better pair.

---------------

Cichlids eating their eggs and fry during the first few batches is common in species that are artificially reared and not left with the parents to raise. The baby fish learn all sorts of things from their parents including brood care and fish body language. They don't get taught these things when the eggs are removed from the parents and hatched and reared artificially without any adult role models. When this happens, the artificially reared fish have to learn by trial and error. This is why certain cichlids just about always eat their eggs and fry the first few times they breed, whereas wild caught fish of the same species, virtually never eat their eggs or young, even on their first batch.

 

[Jacky12]

Wow! All so interesting, Colin. Thank you. As always, I’m so grateful for your presence here & all the knowledge & experience you so generously offer.

My tank breeding fish are on the younger side. I wonder if I’ll get more survivors as the parents mature.

 

[Andy Sager]

They want to breed? What’s this, a biological imperative like for some woman approaching 45? How would one know if they don’t enjoy going through the motions but are not interested in reproducing? How could one determine if a fish or any other animal is frustrated by vanishing eggs/embryos?

This eating the eggs/fry is common in tanks in my limited experience. I now have 5 peacock offspring of OB parents doing well & ~dozen saulosi cichlids doing fine in another tank. A two inch cichlid I can’t ID was recently spotted in my 90 G mixed African cichlid tank. Several months back I netted a tiny cichlid in the same tank & placed it in a peaceful community tank.

All this suggests to me some fish will produce a few offspring in tanks & others won’t. I am doing nothing to encourage breeding. I wouldn’t know what to do with numerous fish. To me, better they don’t make it than be possibly neglected by others.

I think my Severum pair is content, in so far as it is to evaluate fish contentment.
Now as to other possible pair groupings, do you think one of the 4 young sevs in that tank may pair up with the spawning female further down the road? Or maybe even that the adult male will hook up with a younger female?

You are putting too many human emotions onto these non human animals. The natural drive of all living things is to reproduce so that their genepool survives after themselves. It's actually a good sign of health and happiness so you can pat yourself on the back for that. It really comes down to this: If you don't want your fish to breed, you need to keep pairs separated or keep single gender tanks only. If you are unwilling to do these, you have to be prepared for the consequences. THIS is natural. As Colin said, with cichlids, one parent can get really POed at their mate if they constantly eat their eggs. In the wild, the eater would be driven off and not be spawned with again but in a tank, this isn't an option so it's not that unusual for the other fish to beat up the egg eater. How bad is totally up to the fish. Sometimes it's a mild scolding while other times it's much more severe. Since these are young(ish) fish, they both are probably learning the ropes so I wouldn't be too concerned just yet but if the egg loss continues consistently, you may be looking at a problem. I suggest, if you want to see if the female will spawn with another of the 4 other fish, you will need to remove the male so that she has no choice but to spawn by herself or take on a new mate. The same applies for the Male. If you want a new pairing, you need to remove the current female. Just know that the first few spawns of a younger fish are usually ( but not always) duds so egg eating is not something the be concerned about just yet.
A few other points: Severums are not group spawners so a pair will always be the end result. If you are REALLLLLLLLLLY lucky, you may get a trio but not a group past this. How many eggs a specie produces is different for each specie. With your Africans, mouth brooding species will not produce as many eggs per spawn as a substrate spawner. South and Central American cichlids produce hundreds of eggs per spawn because the survival rate is much smaller. So the chances of having a huge amount of offspring from your Africans is minute while highly possible with your Severums once they get going. Regarding " This eating the eggs/fry is common in tanks in my limited experience.", the consequences of egg eating differ among species as well. With some species , i.e. Tetras, Barbs and Danios, the parents themselves will eat their own eggs after spawning. This is natural. With fish like Cichlids, its not a natural response for them to eat their own eggs if they are good. So the egg eating is more specie related than a generalized result.

You need to think like fish.

 

[Jacky12]

You're right, Andy. I’m working on it.

 

[Andy Sager]

You're right, Andy. I’m working on it.

Fish are really one of the few pets you really can't put human emotions to. Fish will do what FISH want to do and only keeping them poorly can stop them.

 

[Jacky12]

That’s exactly what my cats and dogs have been telling me for months. The Frenchie is so depressed that the vet has referred him to a canine psychiatrist.

 

[Colin_T]

That’s exactly what my cats and dogs have been telling me for months. The Frenchie is so depressed that the vet has referred him to a canine psychiatrist.

Please don't pay for a canine psychiatrist. If your dog has issues, contact an animal behaviourist. They are cheaper and their results will be seen much sooner, usually within 2 weeks.

If your dog is feeling anxious or stressed, it is generally the result of the home environment and how people treat the dog. The dog should be treated like a dog and not like a human. If you treat a dog like a human it will take over the house, become the leader of the pack (humans will be lower down the pecking order), and start to become aggressive towards strangers, as well as developing separation anxiety whenever it is left alone.

Separation anxiety can show as barking or howling constantly when nobody is home.
Acting aggressively to visitor/ strangers, or even biting people it knows.
Peeing or pooping in the house when it's left alone.
Destroying things when left alone.

The most common reasons dogs develop separation anxiety are (not necessarily in this order):
People let the dog sleep on the human's bed.
People let the dog jump up onto furniture any time it wants.
People let the dog lay or sit on the human.
People feeding the dog before the humans eat.
People saying hi to the dog before they say hi to the owners and other people around it.

In the wild dogs live in packs with a pecking order. There are two dominant dogs, the alpha female and alpha male. These two rule the group by dominating and intimidating lower ranked dogs. It works well in general and the top ranking dogs eat first, sit wherever they like and all the other dogs come to them to say hi. When the alpha dog/s call, the others in the pack come running to them. If we compare this to a dog living in a house with people, the dog is in a pack, just the members of the pack are humans and dogs. The humans need to be the alpha dogs and the dog needs to be at the bottom of the pecking order.

If you let a dog eat before you have dinner, the dog says I am in charge because I eat first. Humans should eat before the dog and the dog should sit there and wait for its turn to eat. If possible, take the dog for a walk before feeding. This simulates the dog hunting for prey and then having a meal. After dinner they usually fall asleep. The walk should be at least 30 minutes long and the dog should be allowed to stop and sniff things, and allowed to run around off lead in a safe dog exercise area.

If you say hi to a dog as soon as you come home from work, you are telling the dog it is the alpha and you are coming to it. When you come home and the dog is jumping up and down and barking and saying pat me, ignore it until the dog settles down. Then let the dog in and call it over to you to say hi to you.

If a dog is barking and howling to get your attention and there is no reason for it to be doing this (no burglars, fires, etc), ignore the dog or growl at it. Tell it to knock it off. If you go over and pat and hug the dog and say "what's wrong with didums", you are simply going to the alpha dog and showing it attention when it calls you.

If you let a dog jump up and lay on you or sleep on you, or sleep on your bed or furniture whenever it wants, you are telling the dog it is in charge of the pack and it can do whatever it likes. Dogs should have their own bed, preferably raised off the ground a few inches to keep them off the cold floor. They should not sleep in the same bed as a human. They should not be allowed to jump up onto the couch and lay on you any time they want. You can call them over and let them sit on the couch with you, but it must be on your terms and the dog should not do it on their own accord.

If you have a dog that is in charge of the house and has separation anxiety, these steps can put the dog in its place at the bottom of the pecking order, in a matter of weeks. The dog will usually continue to act dominantly for the first week but if you continue to be in charge of the dog, then its behaviour will change rapidly, literally over night. The dog will suddenly act depressed and not want to have anything to do with you. However, after 3 or 4 days of this, the dog will suddenly wake up and accept its new position and be a happy dog again and want to come and say hi to you. When this happens you are in charge and most anxiety issues will go away on their own after that.

If the dog has had separation anxiety for a long time, then it might need something like Valium for dogs (prescribed by a vet) to help it chill a bit for the first month. Then it should be weaned off the medication, while you continue to do the aforementioned things.

 

[Jacky12]

OMG, Colin. I was only joking. I’m so sorry for wasting your time here & can only hope your post will be of use to others someday. I’ll work on restraining my quirky sense of humor. I annoyed the site admin at a Facebook group yesterday. Much buying & selling of fish goes on there, buy always in PM’s as far as I’ve seen.
People say I need “to rehome” this fish, PM me. Or ISO this fish, PM me. Money is exchanged in all cases I know of. So, I openly asked the mod/site admin (usually same person in a Facebook group) if it was OK to offer money for a fish. He said:Absolutely not! I said: oh, too bad. I was going to offer you $50,000 for that blue cichlid. I know my offer is overvalued, but the heart wants what the heart wants
Suffice it to say he was not amused. LOL But others were.

This is my other dog with the husband.

 

[Andy Sager]

OMG, Colin. I was only joking. I’m so sorry for wasting your time here & can only hope your post will be of use to others someday. I’ll work on restraining my quirky sense of humor. I annoyed the site admin at a Facebook group yesterday. Much buying & selling of fish goes on there, buy always in PM’s as far as I’ve seen.
People say I need “to rehome” this fish, PM me. Or ISO this fish, PM me. Money is exchanged in all cases I know of. So, I openly asked the mod/site admin (usually same person in a Facebook group) if it was OK to offer money for a fish. He said:Absolutely not! I said: oh, too bad. I was going to offer you $50,000 for that blue cichlid. I know my offer is overvalued, but the heart wants what the heart wants
Suffice it to say he was not amused. LOL But others were.

This is my other dog with the husband.

Sadly, with today's lack of qualified salespeople at shops and people not doing their research about a potential purchase until AFTER the purchase, you are going to see a lot of fish for sale or needing to be rehomed because they outgrew their tank or cost a lot to feed, etc. That's the sad reality of the pet business today. Personally, I'm always leery of a fish that needs rehoming due to growth ( or actually over growth) as stunting or other physical issues could be going on there. You just don't know the fish's history if you haven't been there to watch it grow.

But if you are offering 50K for a blue cichlid, I know where I can find one.

 

[Jacky12]

I’m trying to insert a gif only & am being told at least seven characters required.
1234567

 

[Colin_T]

OMG, Colin. I was only joking. I’m so sorry for wasting your time here & can only hope your post will be of use to others someday. I’ll work on restraining my quirky sense of humor. .

All good. Not an issue.

I have met people that hired animal psychiatrists for their cat or dog and they spent thousands trying to sort out issues with them. In the end it was the people who needed the shrink and the animals settled down after the humans were fixed

 

[Jacky12]

Hahaha, I can easily believe that.