My Tank Saga

[Rocket Girl]

About a year and a half ago I decided to start a freshwater tank, I had always wanted fish. I went and bought a 20 gallon tank, set it up and let it cycle as recommended and started it with guppies.
Since then I have tried guppies, platies, neons, dwarf gouramis, australian rainbows and one bristlenose pleco. The only fish I've kept longer than 3 months is the bristlenose.
My fish always die. Some of them, especially the livebearers (particularly females) tend to waste away. I have also had neon tetra disease, finrot and ick. Worms have been suggested for the livebearers and I have treated them with several different dewormers. I have tried many remedies for the other disease including salt and malachite green/formalin. Sometimes things seem to be going well but it never lasts. I have tried many different pet stores. I live in a small area and so do not have all that many to choose from but I have tried all the ones within a reasonable distance.
My water quality is an issue but as long as I adapt them slowly at the onset they will seemingly do okay. I kind of thought if they couldn't handle the water, they would die sooner. Some take months.
My tank water pH is quite high 7.8 and moderately hard. The tap water alone is unsuitable, so I mix 50:50 tap water with RO water. I dechlorinate by leaving the water in jugs exposed to air for 48 hours, I don't ever use dechlorinator. I have no plants, everything is artificial. I feed regular flake food once daily except Sundays. I have no ammonia or nitrate or nitrites. I have one power filter as well as a quickfilter attached to a powerhead for aeration.
I currently only have 4 fish in the tank. One is the bristlenose. I have one dwarf rainbow left who so far is well. I have one male guppy whose tail is being eaten I think by the rainbow. I have one female guppy who is currently dying.
I don't know what to do anymore. Do I scrap everything? Start again? I am toying with that idea more and more lately and as I just bought a new fish stand and will have to empty the tank anyways this seems somewhat logical at the time. I am thinking new gravel, plants, filters, etc, new fish, new water - perhaps I should look at trying a further dilution combination (I don't know if I can change/lower the pH/hardness anymore, it is stubborn to move even a small amount). The only thing is if I do that I will have to get rid of my bristlenose and since he was so hard to find initially I don't want to do that, as well the store I got him from is the one that gave me neon tetra disease so I don't want to go back there.

Does anyone have any advice??? TIA.

 

[Pacifico]

Dang, that really stinks! Seems like you've covered all the bases that I would think of... Nitrates, Nitrites, pH, etc. I'm not an expert, but I'm at a loss for suggestions here... Is it possible that the fish you're buying from these few stores just keep introducing disease? Granted, that would be incredibly unfortunate, but it seems like the only possibility to me. Hopefully someone else will have some insight on this... Try to keep from getting too discouraged. Keep is posted.

 

[SpaceButler]

Tough situation.

My first thought would've been that new one's are introducing disease but I dunno.

If you have bad water from the start, I could empathize with that. I have well water... it's extremely hard, and the minerals in it are so bad that the pH on it will just shoot up over night. Even when I do everything right, by the book, there'll be a split fin here, or a pop-eye over here, or some ich, or sometimes a death. I'm still figuring this out myself, so I can't do much more than say I can understand the frustration of feeling helpless in this situation.

Guess that didn't help, heh.

 

[DaPony87]

Have you tried anything to stabilize the pH to a lower level? A lot of the fish you have been getting like soft acidic water. Perhaps you would have better luck with cichlids?

 

[RoK]

If you're filter doesn't have ammonia remover in it then it probably is the ammonia killing your fish. The chlorine in tap water goes away by letting it sit out but the ammonia which is actually more toxic will not. If you can, get a dechlorinator like Aquasafe or Stress Coat and try your luck then.

 

[lyquidphyre]

I was thinking that too, about the dechlor

I would start over from scratch. New gravel, new plants, new filter cartriges etc

What you could do, is go to wal-mart and get 20 jugs of distilled water (it will cost like $13 cuz i did that once hehe), and then do your fishless cycle. After its cycled add a few hardy fish at a time and see how that goes. Then when doing water changes, use your tap water but dechlorinate it and see if that helps any

Do you have an airpump? You don't need one of these, but maybe you could add an airstone and see if that makes a difference

 

[BrianNY]

There are things in our waters that even the water companies don't measure or can test for. If you live in an agricultural area, it's possible that pesticides or fertilizers are part of the problem. Sometimes heavy metals in the water can poison fish slowly. It's something that I would suspect in your case.

Try asking your water supplier for the latest analysis of what's in your water. It might be that you have to go to all RO water and add nutrients back in. Hope this isn't the case.

 

[JohnPaul]

If you have a complete water test kit (liquid reagent kind), perhaps you could do us a favor to help us figure out exactly what you are working with by doing the following four things...

1. Gather a glass of water straight from your tap. Immediately test it for pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. (If you have a GH/KH test kit, test for those also.)

2. Let that glass of water sit out overnight. Run the exact same set of tests again.

3. Prepare water for your tank as you normally do (i.e. the 50/50 mix, sit out 48 hrs method.) Run the same set of tests.

4. Finally, run the same set of tests on the water currently in your aquarium.

One thing that caught my eye is your lack of nitrates. In any tank where there are living fish but no living plants, there have *got* to be some nitrates. So that is something we will need to explore.

Just trying to cover all the bases here, but what is the temp of your tank? And what temp is the water when you add it to your tank? Whenever you add new water to a tank, it really should be within 1 or 2 degrees of the water currently in the tank--otherwise, the temperature change can shock your fish, this leads to stress, this leads to disease.

What kind of regular tank maintenance do you do? How often do you do water changes, how large are they, and do you do things like vacuum gravel, clean and/or change filter inserts (and if so, how do you clean them and/or how often do you replace them)?

Have you ever had algae problems in the tank? Green, brown, anything? Ever have problems with particularly cloudy water?

I know it seems like a lot of questions, but my heart really goes out to you, it seems you've had terrible luck. The point of this hobby is to have fun and enjoy it, and I know (from experience) it's hard to enjoy it when your fish keep dying. So as you get the chance, give us as much info as possible, and there are a lot of people who will do their best to help you.


Oh, and by the way, let me be the first to say WELCOME to AA!

 

[Rocket Girl]

Well, thanks for the ideas.
I guess to start with I should mention I have tried chemicals to lower the pH but the water is so hard in the tank is really doesn't budge. I've thought of cichlids because I know they like that water but it's only a 20 gallon and most cichlids that I've seen would be too big. I measured ammonia and it is 0. Actually I made a mistake, I have never measured nitrates. I've thought of using all RO water but have been advised against it because then you have to add alot of chemicals back in to get some hardness and so on.
Temperature in the tank is 27 degrees Celsius (47 degrees F). My water is not warmed up when I put it in the tank, it's about room temp or so, the overall tank goes down by 2-3 degrees Celsius when I clean. I have done weekly 10% water changes, I have also done 20% water changes every second week, someone said maybe I clean too much. I vacuum gravel about every 3rd week or so. Every 2 weeks I change the quickfilter and either the charcoal or the foam in the powerfilter (I alternate the last two as so to leave some normal flora in the tank).
I have a moderate amount of green algae, my bristlenose is really good for that. I used to have brown algae when I started up the tank, but that eventually all disappeared.

I ran the water tests you suggested and these were the results, some of which I don't understand and double-checked to make sure they were accurate with a few different samples. Ammonia and nitrites were 0 for all samples

Tap Water: pH=7.0, GH=160mg/L (3.2mEq/L), KH=90mg/L (1.8mEq/L).

Aged Tap Water: pH=8.0, GH=180mg/L (3.6mEq/L), KH=90mg/L (1.8mEq/L).

Aged + RO Water: pH=8.0, GH=120mg/L (2.4 mEq/L), KH = 60 mg/L (1.2 mEq/L).

Aquarium Water: pH=8.0, GH=220mg/L (4.4 mEq/L), KH=50 mg/L (1.0 mEq/L).

Just for experiment's sakes, I measured the pH if I mixed tap water straight from the tap with RO water and got 6.6. I don't understand why the difference in the tap vs. aged water, but obviously this number would be preferable. Again, to change the tank water would require taking out all the water because 10-20% water changes do not change pH or KH at all because there is so much buffer.

Anymore thoughts or insights???

 

[lyquidphyre]

It could be your temperature. It should be closer to 70 degrees F, your fish could be freezing to death!

The pH of your tap water is pretty good... I suggest using ur tap water and adding dechlor and to buy a heater

Everything else (the water changes and gravel vac-ing sounds great)

Sometimes its the simple things that can do it- the water temp and dechlor

 

[BrianNY]

No Katy, the fish aren't freezing to death. 27 C is like 81 F. I think you've got a prob with something in the water itself Rocket Girl. Maybe something you're using as a decoration is toxic to the fish. Strange that the pleco has done so well though.

If this were my situation I'd run an experiment with straight RO. Not because the pH or hardness is all that bad, more because I think something else is the problem. I might buy a 10g just to see what happens with straight RO and add some mineral salts back in. If the fish do well after a few months, you'll be pretty sure something nasty is your tap. JMO

 

[JohnPaul]

Okay, a few more ideas are flowing here...

First of all, we have a small math problem with the English units. 27 C ~ 80 F, not 47 F. So the first thing I am thinking, is that the difference between that and room temp is pretty extreme--I think your water changes are shocking your fish. However you do it, the water you add into your tank really ought to be within 1 degree Celsius of the water in your tank, no more. (And the larger a water change you are doing, the more important that number is. Realistically speaking, doing a 10% pwc with water 3 or 4 C lower than the tank is probably not a huge thing. But doing a 50% pwc with water that much cooler is going to be a major, major stress to the fish.)

Plus, your overall tank temp seems just a bit high to me. I would aim to have your tank normally in the 76-78 F range, which would be about 24-25 C.

Overall, your tank maintenance schedule certainly sounds good to me. As for water changes, it is certainly not "too much." I am thinking your filter maintenance might be a bit too much...others here have more experience than I, but I would not change out the physical filtering media until you absolutely have to. Better to remove one, swish it around in some tank water (not tap water, since that has chlorine and will kill the good bacteria), and put the old filter back in. Keep doing that until you absolutely positively need to change it. Normally I would say that same about activated carbon, but if you *do* live in an agricultural area where there might be trace pesticide residues, the carbon will take those out--so you probably want to keep up with your carbon changing. Does your powerfilter have 2 removable media or 3? Most I know have three: the physical filtering (filter floss or a sponge), chemical (charcoal), and bacterial (something like ceramic nuggets to grow the bacterial colonies). A great example are the hob filters made by AquaClear.

I would avoid any chemical attempts to altar pH. Long term, they simply don't work, and lead to wild pH swings which will definitely be fish-deadly. I do worry that your pH is high and that might be having a negative effect. Sadly, I am still a relative newbie to aquariums myself and don't know enough about different types of fish to be able to recommend non-cichlids that really like high pH. You gut instinct that a 20 gal is too small to serve as a cichlid tank is correct, though.

Nitrite and nitrate numbers would be really important. If nothing else, being able to measure those would allow us to eliminate them as reasons for concern. I know from my own experience that whenever I have a fish death, the first thing I do is immediatley test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. If levels are normal (ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate <20 ppm) I can immedately eliminate nitrogen-cycle issues as a cause of death...and that is extremely significant.

Although its not ideal, using pure RO water (with those nutrients added back in) might be a better option for you. I am not quite at the point of being convinced of that, but others have done that and done it quite successfully...and as we continue to eliminate one by one any other explanations for your fish deaths, it does seem like we are slowly moving in the direction of your tap water being the culprit--whether its from high pH, trace amounts of pesticides, whatever.

That's all I have for now--hoping others will be able to chime in some more here.

EDIT: sorry for repeating some of what BrianNY said, I didn't see his post until after mine was typed & posted as well.

 

[Rocket Girl]

If it's my tap water - why can 30 000 other people in the city raise fish successfully?

Here's a piece of history I didn't mention. I moved about a year ago and when I did, I moved the whole tank, with all the fish (about an hour's move). Anyways, the water in my old town was much harder and more alkaline than even here (this is good water). I kept the water the same when I moved (at the time the tank was only 6 months old and I thought it was worms killing the fish).

I only have 2 pieces of removable filtering media. The only products I have access to are Hagen. I have heard of Ammonia remover and Zero-Carb but nothing for bacterial colonies.

Maybe there is no explanation for this.

I will get a nitrate kit and measure those to be sure.

 

[TomK2]

Is it possible that your tap water is treated with chloramine instead of chlorine? I ask because chloramine is not removed by letting it stand or aerating it. Chloramine is harmful and you need to add something to remove it.

When you change out your filter components, is there something left behind for the nitrifying bacteria to live on? If you remove the foam and charcoal, what's left for the biofilter to live on? You need some sort of foam, charcoal, or substrate that stays in the filter long term(months) for the biofilter to live on, and when you replace it because it is dirty or clogging up only replace a third at a time (more or less).

I have found that it is a never ending, useless struggle to add pH modifyers to your local tap water. Large, sudden pH swings are the result. I have a tank with pH of 7.8, GH of 160, KH of 120 and my fish are thriving. So many of the fish for sale these days are adapted to higher pH and hardness that I am doubtful that it is worth adjusting for the average community tank. I do a 20% water change two to three times a week(because I can easily do it, if it was work I would do it less), with water that has been aerated, heated, and dechlorinated. It would be better if the tank temp didn't change with water changes.

No, you can not clean your tank gravel to much, and once every 3 weeks is not excessive. You may be changing your filter components too often? and disrupting your biofilter, but I am not familiar with your filter.

Welcome to AA! I hope some of the advice you find will pay off.

 

[beblondie]

Your tank should be closer to 74-77F if you want to keep tropical fish -Anne

 

[poppab02]

Looks like everyone's been chiming in so I might as well. First, I would definitely go add get a dechlor. I generally don't believe in chemicals but I've never seen dechlor harm fish and it can get out certian chemicals that simply airing out your water isn't going to fix. Second, It seems that alot of your fish choices are ones that I have found to have severe disorders due to breeding problems--guppies, gouramis, most livebearers and labyrinths can have severe problems and die for simply no reason in a very short time. The pleco and rainbow are the only two fish I see on your list that I haven't seen widespread genetic problems in. As for cichlids, if you want to go that way you absolutely must get African cichlids due to the hardness and ph of your water. A pair of kribs might be suitable for a 20 gal tank.

 

[Rocket Girl]

My current tap water parameters are above. Should I just use it straight or continue mixing with the distilled? You've all sold me on the dechlor so I will start doing that. My filter components end up being changed once monthly. That is too much? How do you heat the water before water changes? And what are Kribs? I've never seen anything in the stores around here with that name - is there another name for them? In about a couple weeks my new stand will be painted and I will tearing everything down. I think I will get new gravel, plants, etc and try to "start fresh." I have 3 fish left - one pleco, one rainbow, one guppy with an eaten tail. My female guppy died yesterday finally. Do I get rid of them? I'd really like to keep the pleco, that was a rare find and I don't want a pleco that's going to grow very large. How do you get rid of fish when they're not dead (never had this problem before LOL)???

Thanks for all your help.

 

[carpediem]

27 Celsius is closer to 80 F. So that is not it.

 

[carpediem]

OOps, did not read to the end. Sorry!

 

[lyquidphyre]

No Katy, the fish aren't freezing to death. 27 C is like 81 F.

My bad, should have done the math myself
BUT if it *were* 47 degrees F, they would be mighty chilly in that tank =oP