Need help with getting Nitrate and Nitrite levels down

[Magoop]

So I've had this 10 gallon aquarium for about a month and a half now. For a while it was a bit rough because I had fish that were dying and despite my best efforts and those of my coworkers (I work at a pet store, I deal mostly with dogs and cats, but I love just about any critter). Our fish aren't always the hardiest because of vender issues, so most of the die off was attributed to that as all my parameters were WNL (within normal limits)
Now things seem pretty stable, nothing has died in over 2 weeks. In my attempts to find out why I cant seem to keep more than 4 fish, I've been doing very frequent water tests, usually about once every other day, or once a day.
The big issues seems to be that while my ammonia stays at 0, the nitrates and nitrites are usually in the mid range on my strips.
I'll stop babbling for a moment to give you guys my specifics and parameters.

10 gallon brackish tank (SG ranges from 1.010-1.008)
Current inhabitants: 4 male guppies, 1 nerite snail, 3 ghost shrimp
Plants: 2 marimo moss balls
Temp: 80 F
I am using API 5 in 1 strips
Latest readings after today's %25 water change:
General hardness: 180 ppm
Carbonate hardness: 80 ppm
pH: 6.5-7.0
NO2: 1-3 ppm
NO3 40-80 ppm (color is closer to matching the 40)
Filter: Top Fin power 10
I am currently feeding them a small amount of tropical fish flakes once a day, every few days making them fast.
For water dechlorinator I use SeaChem Prime, and use their Stabilize for bacteria.

I do frequent tests with the people over in aquatics, and the past few times ammonia has been 0. Last test with them was on Saturday.

Let me know if I need to tell you guys anything else. Thanks for any help!

 

[Arthur75]

According to my observations rising nitrate and phosphate after a long time by the materials in the gravel or in the filter.
How long it takes is depends on the load.
If many fish are, it accumulates slowly. This is unavoidable.
If a few fish, too much is feed.
If I have high nitrate and phosphate, I make a general cleaning.
50% old water win clean. If added later, because of the beneficial bacteria.
Otherwise everything remove. clean your plant roots. Remove rotten parts. Gravel out . During the gravel is rinsed in bath room with lukewarm water, sits down in the basin of the bottom mud (chocolate). It will removed completely.
Filters cleaned.
Then everything comes back in. first the old water, then the clean gravel, plants, last fish.
It is wonderfull how low thereafter is nitrate and phosphate. The next day I have a magnificent aquarium.
In my case about nach 1/2 Jahr.
I wish much success

 

[Magoop]

According to my observations rising nitrate and phosphate after a long time by the materials in the gravel or in the filter.
How long it takes is depends on the load.
If many fish are, it accumulates slowly. This is unavoidable.
If a few fish, too much is feed.
If I have high nitrate and phosphate, I make a general cleaning.
50% old water win clean. If added later, because of the beneficial bacteria.
Otherwise everything remove. clean your plant roots. Remove rotten parts. Gravel out . During the gravel is rinsed in bath room with lukewarm water, sits down in the basin of the bottom mud (chocolate). It will removed completely.
Filters cleaned.
Then everything comes back in. first the old water, then the clean gravel, plants, last fish.
It is wonderfull how low thereafter is nitrate and phosphate. The next day I have a magnificent aquarium.
In my case about nach 1/2 Jahr.
I wish much success

I have noted your suggestions.
I did figure that I was feeding too much at first, but i have now significantly decreased how much I am feeding starting a month ago. The moss balls don't have any roots in the gravel as they are free to roll around the aquarium, but I can get them out and give them a gentle squeeze to remove any still water from the middles.
I sadly will not have time to do what you have instructed until my day off on Friday.

I did do some poking around last night and after putting my specs into AqAdvisor, it said that my filter capacity with the Top Fin 10 was too low. After playing around with other filter options, I may pick up a different filter unit today while at work.

But yes, i'll keep an eye on my levels and if a new filter unit doesn't help I will definitely try your suggestions

 

[Watsonja4]

How long has the nitrItes been up? It sounds to me like you are having a mini cycle possibly. Have you recently changed filter pads, added new fish, or changed water and forgot to add dechlorinator? Your NitrAtes are not good but I don't think they're really bad either. You can up the amount of water changes you do to solve this. I would start with 25% weekly and if nitrAtes do not go down just up the amount, also it's not a bad idea to gravel vac 50% at each water change.

 

[Magoop]

How long has the nitrItes been up? It sounds to me like you are having a mini cycle possibly. Have you recently changed filter pads, added new fish, or changed water and forgot to add dechlorinator? Your NitrAtes are not good but I don't think they're really bad either. You can up the amount of water changes you do to solve this. I would start with 25% weekly and if nitrAtes do not go down just up the amount, also it's not a bad idea to gravel vac 50% at each water change.

They have both been in the mid range for about a week and a half to two weeks now. They go down slightly after each change. I have been doing %25 water changes at least once every 3 days, at most every other day. I'm just starting to worry that the problem is going to raise the water bill significantly as well as not being solved completely. The latter is my biggest concern, though. I always always use conditioner.
I have used the gravel vac durring each change, though I usually focus on a different area each time . the water doesn't usually appear all that dirty, not a lot of bits of rotting food or plants. There's some stuff there, but not as much as in say, the other small tank I have with a crayfish in it (i know they are quite a bit messier though, at least from what I read)

I have changed the filter on days I don't do water changes. But much less frequently; usually after my travel vac from the previous change kicked up a noticeable bit of debris.

The nitrItes are lower on the general scale, while the nitrAtes seem to be in the dead middle or higher end most of the time

 

[Watsonja4]

I have changed the filter on days I don't do water changes. But much less frequently; usually after my travel vac from the previous change kicked up a noticeable bit of debris.

The nitrItes are lower on the general scale, while the nitrAtes seem to be in the dead middle or higher end most of the time

This might be the problem if you are discarding the filter cartridge and replacing it with a new one. The majority if not all of your beneficial bacteria live on your filter media and on your substrate. If you are discarding your old cartridge you are throwing away a large percentage of beneficial bacteria thus creating a mini-cycle. If your filter is dirty put some tank water in a bucket and shake the cartridge around in it to remove loose debris and put it back in the filter. You should only need to replace cartridges if the old is falling apart.

Have you checked your tap water for nitrAtes? If you have NitrAtes in your tap water you might not be able to get them down with water changes in which I would recommend some fast growing live plants.

 

[Watsonja4]

I have noted your suggestions.
I did do some poking around last night and after putting my specs into AqAdvisor, it said that my filter capacity with the Top Fin 10 was too low. After playing around with other filter options, I may pick up a different filter unit today while at work.

If you are looking for a different filter I highly recommend the Aquaclear line of filters. I know many people on here as well as friends that use them, they are the closest you will get to a canister filter in a HOB.

 

[Magoop]

thank you for the suggestion on filter brand. It looks like may be currently a bit out of my price range but I will definitely add it to my list. I was going to purchase something from aqueon before getting off work, but I can hold off and save up for an aquaclear of you think that would be best.

I suppose it makes little to no difference if the filter comes with a 'bio-plate' that is seperate from the cartrige, huh?

I can definitely check the water, though I do have two smaller tanks that I have used the same water in that do not have this kind of problem. I needed to go to the store tonight before I head home so should I pick up some distilled water to use for the next water change just in case there happens to be some in the water supply? What should I do if there is none, keep doing water changes, just back off on frequency?

Edit: I suppose a more important question relating to frequency of water change is more what levels should I consider 'too high' while I wait for this mini cycle to pass?

Also also, if I do happen to end up with a new HOB filter, how do you make the switch as smooth as possible between old unit to new unit?

Sorry about all the questions, I just don't want to lose any more fish if I can help it.

 

[Watsonja4]

Buy the filter that you are comfortable paying for just shoot for a 6-10x water turnover rate(you can never have to much filtration IMO), you can run your old filter in tandem to achieve this. If you have other tanks that are not having issues with nitrAtes then it's likely another problem such as overfeeding, or decomposing organics. Did you read the post on changing filter pads as I think this is causing your nitrIte problem.

 

[Watsonja4]

I would say 40ppm of nitrAte is fine however I try to keep my tanks below 20.

I would run both filters on the tank for a couple of weeks to seed the new filter then you can remove the old one or keep running both.

 

[Magoop]

Yes, I read all of the posts. Including the one about me more than likely changing filters too often.
The filter I plan on buying, according to AqAdvisor, should have plenty of capacity.
Would a bacteria supplement help the transition from old to new unit help as well? I don't plan on keeping the current one in service any longer than I have to, mostly because topfin filters, at least with what I've read from reviews, tend to have a pretty short life span or other problems. The only reason I have it now is because it was in a kit.
I can definitely cut back on feeding a bit more , as well as doing a more in-depth gravel vac on my day off if you think that may help. I'll do a 25% water change then as well as levels don't get too high before Thursday night/Friday.

My main concern is getting things stable before I have to do surgery in a week and a half. My mother knows nothing of fish so asking her to do anything but a simple water change worries me.

Any other suggestions for the immediate future?

 

[Autumnsky]

NitrIte should always be 0! even 5ppm can be toxic. and cause health problems for fish which lower their immune systems and they can die days or even a couple to few weeks later from the incident.

You keep doing pwc until the water parameters are below caution and are well within the safe level.

Also get a liquid API test kit. Cheapest online but if you get a discount at work maybe similar deal. I have had good dependable service from my Aqueon HOB filters, would not shy away from buying one - though I own numerous A/C.

Read the articles about fish in cycling - there are a couple.

If you click the link in my signature it goes to our AA article and there are more links for Jetajockeys Step over to the Darkside fish in cycling article, and other useful tidbits from good articles.

Never change the filter pad until it falls apart as previously mentioned!!! Alo regarding the filter, go bigger and 6-10x water turn over, the GPH rating is best. The gph rating is always for a perfectly clean and new filter pad with no gunk so when you live real life- not a test labratory, the gph will reduce because of filter catching the gunk and it won't be as much as the brag on the box.

Usually a new fish keeper will realize their dreams of fish tank keeping include larger tanks..... which need larger filters!!! So don't be shy about getting the biggest size you can fit on it. You can easily run 2 hob filters on a tank, you can add the filter pad from your first tank into the compartment as one of the piggy back filter cartridges to start if you don't have room for 2 hob filters.

Also if you can add a second filter pad to the hob filter, do it. It means that there are many more places for bb to colonize, easily and be there growing. It also means you can clean one oth them a little more every other week and leave the other and don't really disturb / wash away the bb as much. It is often referred to as "piggy back" the filter cartridges /pads.

Test strips aren't always accurate, they are easier to use, but when they happen to fail, you can get inaccurate reading on even just one section and kill your fish. It has happened to me and I even tested periodically to verify the accuracy of the test strips.

The basic training at the pet stores is not a substitute for actual fish keeping experience, and as you will find over time, the information is often lacking in thoroughness (and sadly accuracy). An example being taught is the new filter pad every month.

Lastly, perhaps one of your coworkers could come over to help with water changes for a few times. And your mom could watch you change the water a few times and you could train her on what to do.

 

[Magoop]

NitrIte should always be 0! even 5ppm can be toxic. and cause health problems for fish which lower their immune systems and they can die days or even a couple to few weeks later from the incident.

You keep doing pwc until the water parameters are below caution and are well within the safe level.

Also get a liquid API test kit. Cheapest online but if you get a discount at work maybe similar deal. I have had good dependable service from my Aqueon HOB filters, would not shy away from buying one - though I own numerous A/C.

Read the articles about fish in cycling - there are a couple.

If you click the link in my signature it goes to our AA article and there are more links for Jetajockeys Step over to the Darkside fish in cycling article, and other useful tidbits from good articles.

Never change the filter pad until it falls apart as previously mentioned!!! Alo regarding the filter, go bigger and 6-10x water turn over, the GPH rating is best. The gph rating is always for a perfectly clean and new filter pad with no gunk so when you live real life- not a test labratory, the gph will reduce because of filter catching the gunk and it won't be as much as the brag on the box.

Usually a new fish keeper will realize their dreams of fish tank keeping include larger tanks..... which need larger filters!!! So don't be shy about getting the biggest size you can fit on it. You can easily run 2 hob filters on a tank, you can add the filter pad from your first tank into the compartment as one of the piggy back filter cartridges to start if you don't have room for 2 hob filters.

Also if you can add a second filter pad to the hob filter, do it. It means that there are many more places for bb to colonize, easily and be there growing. It also means you can clean one oth them a little more every other week and leave the other and don't really disturb / wash away the bb as much. It is often referred to as "piggy back" the filter cartridges /pads.

Test strips aren't always accurate, they are easier to use, but when they happen to fail, you can get inaccurate reading on even just one section and kill your fish. It has happened to me and I even tested periodically to verify the accuracy of the test strips.

The basic training at the pet stores is not a substitute for actual fish keeping experience, and as you will find over time, the information is often lacking in thoroughness (and sadly accuracy). An example being taught is the new filter pad every month.

Lastly, perhaps one of your coworkers could come over to help with water changes for a few times. And your mom could watch you change the water a few times and you could train her on what to do.

Thank you very much, I will read those soon as I am home.
I also have an update:
After not being able to sleep I did a 25-40% water change. Did a bit of gravel vac in areas I know debris tend to settle. Today is another fasting day.
Tested all water sources at my house, all of them were 0 for both nitrItes and nitrAtes.

NitrIte is now at 0.5-1 ppm
NitrAte is now at 20-40 ppm

Installed new filter (we will call it filter B), let some of the 'juice' from filter A cartridge drip onto the filter B's cartridge and both are currently running. I may try the piggy backing option, my nerite is kind of an escape artist. He's adjusting to one of the smaller tanks that he can hang out in for now until the filter situation settles.

I know I'll get into bigger aquariums someday (i'm absolutely smitten with the dinosuar birchirs we have at work) but for now I just have a ten gallon and a few smaller ones. I figured with the space and knowledge I had I wanted to start small. I know some things, but I also don't know a lot more

Would you recommend doing pwc once a day or once every other day? I can easily refill the distilled water jugs every time I'm in town, maybe even pick up some more as they are a bit handier ATM for lugging water around so I can keep up on the constant changes until the levels are WNL.

And i know the fact that pet stores, mine included, don't always know the right things. To be fair, I was the one calling the shots with being change happy on the filter, that had nothing to do with them. They have been helpful, and since I've been around for a while they are more than willing to tell me if they don't know (Though I suppose it helps I do my best to help them with dog advice, and have been honest with them if I don't have a clue as well.) I also only deal with two of them, because they have their own fish and well the others aren't .... aware how little they know, if that makes any sense.

I know we have a liquid kit at work but it is Marineland brand and not API, would this suffice? I can order things online but I would rather have something more accurate. I could also attempt to check some of the other stores in town, but I'm afraid they will either have it at a higher price, or the store that does have it I don't want to give money to (they are not good at animal husbandry) Also, I'm assuming I'll want the freshwater test kit, even though the tank is brackish.

 

[Autumnsky]

Glad to hear of the better test results with the extra water change. Check the tank water each day if you can while they cycling is going on with a liquid test kit.

Change when it is edging up out of the safe range.

Prime will also help when you have to run off to work - say in a pinch to keep the water parameters in check - though not really a substitute for a pwc!

API FW kit should work fine. Anyone else who might know better chime in here! I do not own the SW kit, I use my FW kit for my SW and my FW.

 

[Magoop]

Glad to hear of the better test results with the extra water change. Check the tank water each day if you can while they cycling is going on with a liquid test kit.

Change when it is edging up out of the safe range.

Prime will also help when you have to run off to work - say in a pinch to keep the water parameters in check - though not really a substitute for a pwc!

API FW kit should work fine. Anyone else who might know better chime in here! I do not own the SW kit, I use my FW kit for my SW and my FW.

I figured seeing it was more on the fresh side than the marine side. I do have Prime, what should the dosage be if I see things getting high before I head off to work? About 1 ml for ten gallons or a bit more?

I'll be sure to pick the test kit up tomorrow, hoping no one grabs it before I get there at noon

 

[Arthur75]

Nitrate and phosphate form depots in the dirty gravel. I have done 2 times a week 50% water change a few months, and the values were always high. (I wanted to safe the floor plants). Again and again broke new nitrate and phosphate. New solution. It was a lot of work.
Then I realized: The dirt must get out.
How much work does a general cleaning? It depends on the procedure. There need not be many. One hour every six months. Then I measure again a slow rise. Unavoidable.
Meds I do not like use much. During is sometimes destroyed a lot. Thats much money.

 

[Magoop]

Nitrate and phosphate form depots in the dirty gravel. I have done 2 times a week 50% water change a few months, and the values were always high. (I wanted to safe the floor plants). Again and again broke new nitrate and phosphate. New solution. It was a lot of work.
Then I realized: The dirt must get out.
How much work does a general cleaning? It depends on the procedure. There need not be many. One hour every six months. Then I measure again a slow rise. Unavoidable.
Meds I do not like use much. During is sometimes destroyed a lot. Thats much money.

I will definitely keep that in mind. My aquarium's only been up for about one and a half to two months. I do not notice too much build up at this time, but I will keep an eye on it.

Also, Autumn, about the suggestion for teaching my mom. I can have some one show her, as one of my friends will be hanging out with me for aftercare (a mutual friend had the same surgery so she already knows the ins and outs, and her being around will allow me to relax because my mom won't be bugging me. The woman means well, she's just kind of a helicopter mom)

 

[Watsonja4]

I figured seeing it was more on the fresh side than the marine side. I do have Prime, what should the dosage be if I see things getting high before I head off to work? About 1 ml for ten gallons or a bit more?

I'll be sure to pick the test kit up tomorrow, hoping no one grabs it before I get there at noon

Yes 1mL of prime treats 10 gallons and if I remember correctly detoxifies ammonia and nitrites for 48hours.

 

[Autumnsky]

Quote from Prime directions

" To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose."

Seachem - Prime


Hope this helps.

 

[Magoop]

Quote from Prime directions

" To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose."

Seachem - Prime


Hope this helps.

I usually put in about 1 ml or a tad more, as I don't feel the slight raise from post water change last night I would consider an emergency

I have the test kit, I'll not be home till tonight late, but I'll probably do another water change like last night, probably do only about a %30 change (~3 gallons) tonight and then See how things are tomorrow.

Thank you all so much for your help!

Edit: would it be better if I found some pellets for the guppies? As it's a bit easier to measure pellets, but I can also crumble the flakes up pretty small and then use one of my teeny tiny scoops to measure

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