Need opinions on enhancing filtration/water flow (diagrams)

[20 20]

My 125 gallon African cichlid tank has been running for about a month now, and I'm beginning to see where my filtration/water flow issues are. My current setup:

125 gallon All Glass tank with predrilled 'megaflows'.
Oceanclear sump model 2 wet/dry filter with 950 gph pump.
XP3 canister filter.
UGJ's with 700 gph pump (6 jets).

The right side of the tank has low 'crap collection points' (where fish waste accumulates in the substrate). The left side, however, has high 'crap collection points'.

I've made a diagram of my current filtration/flow setup (not to scale, of course):

As you can see (hopefully, if my diagram is at all readable), the XP3 intake is on the right side of the tank, where the low 'crap' point is. So, I'm trying to figure out how to modify/enhance my filtration/water flow to get low crap collection on the left side. My first thought was to get another XP3 and put the intake on the left side, as in this diagram:

Another option that came to mind was to have an additional intake not only on the left side of the tank, but in the middle also. I don't want to get 2 more filters, however. So, I came up with this idea. I already have a 950 gph pump sitting around waiting for a use. I could get an Oceanclear 340 filter, and hook the pump up to that. For intakes, I could put two intakes in the tank, one on the left and one on the middle, and then connect them outside of the tank, and have the combined line go to the pump:

I don't really want to change my UGJ system, too much work. Given the fact that the right side isn't bad and that's where the current lone XP3 intake is, I think the UGJ system is OK. So, two options I'm considering:

A) Adding another XP3 with intake on the left side

B) Using my unused 950 GPH pump with an OceanClear 340 filter, probably with two intakes, one on the left, and one on the center. One issue with this option I'm not sure about is would this be TOO much flow for Africans in a 125 gallon tank? (950 gph wet/dry, 350 gph XP3, 700 gph UGJ's, and now another 950 gph with the Oceanclear?)

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[TomK2]

Wow. what diagrams. Off hand, I would expect that unless you have nozzles to sweep across the gravel, there has to be points in the tank where the circulation eddies allow things to settle. I am not sure you could ever prevent this. Filter intakes aren't really going to suck so hard that nothing settles to the bottom, are they? As the currents from your output swirl and mix, they will tend to push things to spots where the currents allow them to settle.

If you wanted to try and control where those spots are, you would have to play with adjusting the outflow, and see how that impacts things.

I love your filtration set up! You have it all, don't you! Canisters, sumps, tons of turnover. Awesome.

 

[czcz]

What traps the junk with B? It looks like a closed loop -- do you plan on integrating media into the piping?

How about splitting the current XP3 intake to either side and keeping the spray bar where it is?

 

[20 20]

Wow. what diagrams. Off hand, I would expect that unless you have nozzles to sweep across the gravel, there has to be points in the tank where the circulation eddies allow things to settle. I am not sure you could ever prevent this. Filter intakes aren't really going to suck so hard that nothing settles to the bottom, are they? As the currents from your output swirl and mix, they will tend to push things to spots where the currents allow them to settle.

If you wanted to try and control where those spots are, you would have to play with adjusting the outflow, and see how that impacts things.

I love your filtration set up! You have it all, don't you! Canisters, sumps, tons of turnover. Awesome.

I don't expect to have no debris on the bottom, just trying to limit it as much as possible. That's what the UGJ's are for. Seems to be working well on the right side, where the lone intake currently is. That's why I think another XP3 with the intake on the left side might help greatly on that side. The question is, is that enough? Or should I go with the 950 gph pump/Oceanclear 340 filter with intakes on the left and in the middle, or would that be overkill? (Or would the flow be too much for Africans?)

 

[20 20]

What traps the junk with B? It looks like a closed loop -- do you plan on integrating media into the piping?

How about splitting the current XP3 intake to either side and keeping the spray bar where it is?

The close loop with option B would be run through an Oceanclear 340 filter:

http://www.thatpetplace.com/Product...ilters/T1/F22+0462+0109/EDP/374/Itemdy00.aspx

I hadn't considered splitting the current XP3 intake into two intakes. I'll have to think about that. The first question that comes to mind is if I split the flow coming from the right side of the tank by splitting the XP3's intake, how negatively would that effect the 'crap collection' that's happening on that side?

 

[greenmaji]

I think czcz was wondering if you were considering getting more filtration by adding it to the under gravel jet pump.. Im wondering why the UGJ's are not moving the muck out of those area's so that it can be filtered.. or is the UGJ jets on the left side proposed?

 

[tetrin]

20 20, you are right on the fact that your current filtration is quite adequate (16x) for the african's liking. the key is to filter without too much current. your overflow and the canister takes care of that issue.

now to look at the reasons behind the formation of the CCP's (first time i heard of the term ) -

- the one on the left back corner is created by two streams mixing together and nullifying each other's strength. the presence of the intake of the canister on the right side creates enough suction to draw the debris despite this. so, czcz's option of splitting the inlet of the XP3 would work well.

- the one in front of the UGJ pump is caused by the recirculation zone created by the corner of the overflow box. unless you direct a UGJ at that point, the recirculation zone is going to remain in place.

- i frankly don't understand the reason behind the 3rd CCP. it has a UGJ pointed directly at it.

so, to suggest remedies, you could go with czcz's recommendation. i don't know much about overflow filters. but if you could direct the output from your left overflow box to the right instead of to the left, i belive that might help in eliminating the CCP's on both sides of the left overflow box.

HTH.

 

[greenmaji]

btw.. you might want to consider directing the the output of the wet/dry away from the canisters intake..

 

[20 20]

or is the UGJ jets on the left side proposed?

All the UGJ jets are currently in place.

20 20, you are right on the fact that your current filtration is quite adequate (16x) for the african's liking. the key is to filter without too much current. your overflow and the canister takes care of that issue.

So, adding the 950 gph pump would be too much? How about an addition XP3, at 350 gph?

now to look at the reasons behind the formation of the CCP's (first time i heard of the term ) -

Heh, just made that up. Was thinking "Hmmm... So that's where the crap is collecting..."

- the one on the left back corner is created by two streams mixing together and nullifying each other's strength. the presence of the intake of the canister on the right side creates enough suction to draw the debris despite this. so, czcz's option of splitting the inlet of the XP3 would work well.

- the one in front of the UGJ pump is caused by the recirculation zone created by the corner of the overflow box. unless you direct a UGJ at that point, the recirculation zone is going to remain in place.

- i frankly don't understand the reason behind the 3rd CCP. it has a UGJ pointed directly at it.

All that makes sense, including not understanding the 3rd CCP (at the front left corner).

Still, I'm stuck on this point. With an XP3 intake on the right side, that side is OK as far as CCP's. Why wouldn't an additional XP3 intake on the left side correct the issues there, including the unexplained '3rd' CCP? And if an intake over on the left side would 'cure' the CCP's, should I keep one XP3 and split the intake, thereby cutting in half the 'sucking' on the right side which could possibly create new CCP's on that side? Or get a 2nd XP3? Or, go wild and add the 950 GPH pump/Oceanclear filter (probably overkill).

Decisions, decisions...

 

[20 20]

btw.. you might want to consider directing the the output of the wet/dry away from the canisters intake..

The only intake in the system right now is the one on the right side, where there really isn't an issue.

 

[czcz]

This is a great thread. I think your reasoning for the second XP3 is sound, but figure one XP may be able to do the job, especially since you don't need additional biomedia or more total current, per tetrin's ARLC skillz. Also, I'm cheap.

 

[20 20]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'm leaning towards a new XP3. Cheap is good. It's cheaper than going the Oceanclear 340 route and I think it may greatly help my crappy issue. I'm leary of simply splitting the current XP3's intake into two, I think it would reduce the amount of water flowing into the XP3 on the right side too much.

Anyway, enough with the diagrams, here's a REAL picture of the tank in question:

 

[tetrin]

one factor that we haven't taken into consideration is the size of the rocks. all the previous reasonings have implicitly assumed that the size and distribution of rocks on both halves of the tank are the same.
however, if you have a larger rock distribution on the left, you are providing more points for the flow to stagnate and create recirculation zones.

below is a rough modification of your diagram where i tried to explain why you have the 3rd recirculation zone - the placement of the rock on the left side in the line of flow of the UGJ.

czcz - i wouldn't place much faith on my ARLC skills . i'd like to get a confirmation from others too. after all, my experience with them runs into about 3 weeks.

 

[20 20]

Interesting theory about the 3rd CCP. Maybe moving that one rock might help it. I would think I would still need an intake on that side of the tank, though. (More thinking to come...)

 

[tetrin]

oops...didn't see your post. you are almost a mind-reader. i was thinking of asking you to post a picture of your tank . great tank BTW...

in light of the new evidence, we can safely assume that you have an uniform rock distribution on both side.
so the cheapest alternative i can suggest is -
try changing your aquascape. create a gradient from the right the left with more rocks heaped on the right. though i wouldn't blame you if you don't want to tinker with the rocks anymore.
but i do believe that freeing up the left of the taller rocks would provide a simple solution. might be wrong though .

 

[tetrin]

what kind of africans do you have in there?
if i'm not mistaken, i think it's predominantly a hap tank with a few yellow labs - a few copadichromis borleyi, a compressiceps...and maybe a peacock on the right?

anyway, all of these guys would appreciate if you open up one side of the tank and give them somewhat more swimming room.
but please ignore this post if i'm way off on my id... ...

 

[20 20]

Here's what I've got right now:

1 Aulonocara sp - Strawberry Cichlid (hybred probably)
1 Cyrtocara moorii -Blue Dolphin
2 Copadichromis sp. "Mloto Undu" (1M, 1F) - Mloto Ivory Head
2 Dimidiochromis compressiceps (1M, 1F) - Malawi Eye Biter
4 Labidochromis caeruleus (Kakusa) -Yellow Lab
1 Aulonocara koningsi - Mbenji Peacock, Blue Regal
4 Copadichromis borleyi (Kadango) (1M, 3F) - Red Fin Kandango
1 Aulonocara sp. "Stuartgranti Maleri" (Chipoka) - Sunshine peacock
1 Sciaenochromis fryeri - Electric Blue Ahli
2 Aulonocara stuartgranti (Rubescens) - Ruby peacocks
3 Clown Loaches
1 Hypostomus pleco
1 Spotted bristlenose pleco

So, yeah, you're pretty close with your id's!

 

[tetrin]

wow...that's an dream setup you've got there!!!
i simply can't find a way to put it - but that tank is a riot of colors if you have all adults in there...

 

[20 20]

Dream setup? Don't know about that, but I like the way it turned out. I was torn between a more natural look (sand, etc), and this one, but I saw a cichlid tank at a large fish store that was close to what mine is, and decided to go for 'the look'.

Most are young adults, but some are juveniles. The blue dolphin, yellow labs, and ruby peacocks are all juveniles. I'm waiting to see how the blue dolphin and ruby peacocks turn out, they should add greatly to the look of the tank when they mature.

I have a question on the amount of filtration that would be optimal for an African cichlid tank. What would the optimal turnover rate be? 5? 10? 20? I'm not including any UGJ systems here, just 'filtered' turnover.

 

[tetrin]

i think the standard recommendation is 10x. but again, i'd double-check anything tetrin says with someone with more experience .
you are right on the strawberry being a hybrid. but as long as it looks good and doesn't breed, i don't care ...
i'd like to see a pic of the mature tank...what are you feeding them?