New Lights at HD and Lowes

[kevqtmn]

Interested in getting into Aquarium Lighting

Hey, I am glad I found this web site. Maybe you guys can help me and in return I can help you. My name is Kevin Alvarez. I am with SKR Energy Systems, Inc. My company manufactures energy efficient lighting fixtures and retrofit kits for the commercial and industrial business. I am very interested in starting to make an affordable retrofit kit and/or fixture for the aquarium sector. One of the first things I noticed when I was doing research is that most fixtures do not have a true specular reflector. The ones I did see were called Spider Reflectors and to be honest with you, I thought the price of those reflectors were a little high. I know we could manufacture a very similar product for a much more reasonable price.

I am going to be contacting IceCap Ballast tomorrow to see about establishing a distributor agreement. I am interested to hear what you guys are looking for in terms of lighting fixtures. Who knows, maybe we can help build it.

Maybe I can answer some of your questions regarding lighting in general. Again, I do not yet know much of the details of aquarium lighting other than the color temp. is extremely important.

 

[justDIY]

well, it would be great to get more competition in the area of retrofit lighting, as the current players all seem to have very high prices.

reflectors aside, all the parts needed to do a high quality compact size retrofit with compact or regular fluorescent are very hard to find.

first, finding single or small quanties of any of these parts is a chore, and next to impossible online, without huge markup at least.

#1 a true electronic ballast (not an electronic hybrid) ... sure many of us have experimented with the GE 5lb brick that claims it's an electronic ballast for T8 lights (but runs just about anything) ... but it weighs 5 lbs!!! there's gotta be a big coil or something in there ... true electronic ballasts only weigh a pound or so, but are very difficult to find on the cheap ... sure there is icecap, and naturallighting.com, but they want big bux for a rebranded ballast that probably cost $1 or $2 to produce and wholesales for around $12-$15

#2 bulbs. CF, PC or NO, bulbs with color temps of 5000 to 6700k (or higher for salties) are available under the brand names of Customsealife and others ... but if we're supposed to replace these every 6 months, good gosh that's expensive! at $20 to $50 each! Panasonic, Phillips and Osram-Sylvania make these bulbs, and resellers just re-brand them with custom silk-screening ... but unless you want to buy a case of 200 bulbs from a wholesaler, you can't find them anywhere ... sure you can get the Philips Daylight Deluxe 48" T12 from just about anywhere, and it's cheap, but heck, you need a LOT of those to equal the light you get from a single 96 watt Dulux-L or even a normal T8 is a lot brighter.

#3 sockets. 2 pin, 4 pin, medium bi-pin. Good sockets are as hard if not harder to find then the bulbs themselves, at least, at a decent price. Most of your hardware stores and home improvement warehouses sell medium bi-pin sockets, but they are the kind design to slip over or clip into an existing sheet metal fixture. There are the kind designed to hold a screw in their base, but the plastic is very brittle and breaks easily after a few bulb changes. The only 'good' ones I like are the kind that take a screw through the body and into a support behind the socket.... $5 ea at a local electricans supply shop ... $5!!!!! for a small piece of plastic with some brass springs in it ... sure I could buy a case of 10000 online, but what am I gonna do with so many.

Whenever you mention lighting on certain mailing lists, you get a flurry of responses recommending a company called ahsupply. I have no doubt that ahsupply sells a good product, and their prices are a lot more resonable then places like hellolights, but they are still too high for my budget, and I'm sure others as well.

I also am disheartened by businesses response when a hobbiest makes an inquery regarding lighting ... most places automaticlly assume a negative attitude, refusing to even check if they have a certain product ... "if it's for an aquarium, we can't help you." ... did their lawyer tell them this? I could kill myself installing a troffer light or ceiling fan just as easily as dropping lights into a fishtank, probably easier, since ceiling fans and troffer lights don't normally have GFCI protection.

Sorry for my rant, I just get upset at the lack of options available to the budget minded hobbist

 

[Guest]

Sorry for my rant, I just get upset at the lack of options available to the budget minded hobbist

Don't worry, I have been singing this blues tune since I started.

I think that the companies charge what they do, not because it is a hobby, but, because they know that hobbyists will pay their price no matter what.

If you reverse this and look at the indoor Horticulture sites, you will notice that the prices of their units have dropped in half since the public said bump the high prices and went DIY. Why wouldn't people that can, build their own for less than half the cost. It is utterly rediculous for companies to sell a MH fixture for an aquarium for in upwards of $600 when it cost them less than $200 to make. This is not an understatement either, because you can buy the ballasts, wires, sockets and 2 10K bulbs for $200 and these companies buy at wholesale and below so if you do the math, it is even cheaper. That is a 200% markup. I don't support that. This is where we come in as hobbyists.
We can put a hurting on these companies if we don't support their high prices. It is one thing to make money in a business, but it is another to be greedy . I am all for working to get a low priced DIY kit that beats all of them..I am not out to get rich, just help my fellow hobbyist .

 

[kevqtmn]

Guys thanks for your responses, I really appreciate the feedback! If you r opinions echo that of your fellow hobbyists I think I may really be avle to help all of you. I agree that a business can be profitable without being greedy and making hobbyists go broke trying to do something they love. I have already made some phonecalls within the industry and have a good feeling that we can create a quality product at a much better price. The key to keeping the prices low would be to minimize the advertising and marketing costs. This would most easlity be accomplished by doing two things:
1) SKR Energy Systems can create a quality product that can be easily ordered online at a fair price.
2) Satisfied customers spread the word to all other aquarium/coral hobbyists.

My e-mail address at SKR is kalvarez@skrenergy.com. Feel free to contact me with any ideas, questions or comments you may have. I look forward to hearing from you!

Kevin Alvarez

 

[kevqtmn]

It seems as if the electronic ballast are rated the same (whether for a traditional fluorescent fixture or one for aquarium). Does anyone know if there is a major difference or any difference between an ICE CAP ballast and a Electronic ballast you can buy at Home Depot or Lowes?

 

[justDIY]

well, the ice cap's are supposedly "true" electronic, in that they are more flexible in the types of bulbs they can drive, and in their efficency

Advance ballast is now making "true" electronic ballasts, you can get them from Grainger for $40-70 (probably cheaper someplace else?)

Home Depot and Lowes sell some electronic "hybrid" ballasts, which have electronics to generate a high-frequency signal (burns the lights brighter) but still rely on a big transformer to provide that 400-600v punch a light needs to operate ... that big transformer generates lots of heat because it's wasting electricty ... instead of putting it into the bulb, it's using it to make heat.

 

[kevqtmn]

No way!

Can you please get me the part number for the ballast you say is $40-$70 at Grainger. I am in the lighting business and we sell electronic ballasts all the time at a fraction of that price. I am not sure what you mean by "true elec." ballast. I understand the difference between electro-magnetic and electronic. When you say "hybrid" are you referring to the "electromagnetics". The electronic ballast we sell do not use any watts of electricity.

Wow! I would love to help all of you. There is no need to be getting ripped off with your lighting purchases. If indeed we are talking about the same ballasts, then there is no reason why I can not help you - in supplying ballasts, reflectors and fixtures (which we manufacture), lampholders, lamps, etc.

 

[justDIY]

yes, by hybrid I meant electro-magnetic ballasts ... I use one right now (GE 432I), and it seems good 'nuff, but I'm sure a true electronic would help get even more out of the bulbs, plus it'd be great if the ballast didn't get so darned hot

if you've got your grainger catalog (394), check out pages 681 and 685

or view online

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...patable=true&adobeCompatable=true&CatPage=681

681 has electronic's for T8 lights (probably could be used on power-compacts)

685 has electronic's for Compact Fluorescents (I couldn't find any Advance ballasts for more than a 40 watt cfl, must be a special order/oem thing)

 

[kevqtmn]

what about T5 Electronic Ballast with T5HO lamps

These lamps run kind of warm, but with some fans I think it could be a good fixture. But why not consider a fixture or retrofit kit with a ballast running (2) T5HO at 54Watts a piece. Do they make these lamps in the proper Kelvin you need?

Another option would be an Osram 332+ ballast. it would run (3) 32W T8 lamps at a ballast factor of 1.2 - meaning you will actually get 10,600 lumes and only 112 watts.

I dont kow how many lumens you need...let me know and I will try to develop a system for you. keep in mind, we also make reflectors which should add an additional 15-30% lumens depending on the tank size, shape, etc.

 

[michealprater]

I am no lighting expert by no means, so I cannot comment on lumens. However I know most people with reef tanks prefer 3 or more watts per gallon. So for instance on a 75 gallon tank (48") you would want at least 225 watts of light. Most people will want more though. I have a 100 gallon tank that has 960 watts of light over it. 9.6 watts per gallon. I acheived this with 2- 400 watt metal halides with 6500k bulbs and 4-40 watt NO actinics. Hope that helps some.

 

[Electrobes]

Hey for those of you who bought LoA lights... I bought two I think they are 6500K, for my 29 gallon tank. I am thinking of pulling them from the casing and mounting them onto my hood, and keeping both fanned. Will this set up last long and is this a good idea for a freshwater heavily planted tank??? Thanks all. The sad thing is that I've had these lights for about 2 months but am in summer classes... 280 miles away from home. But yeah I bought these things almost in a rush of exceitment, but get to go home for a week soon, and am thinking of finishing the hood. Please tell me your opiions or suggestions... thanks everyone!!!

 

[Electrobes]

I was thinking that a glass canopy could be put under the lights (so I woudn't need the casing and keep a fan running for each of the two lights... I heard it makes them last a lot longer... agreements, disagreements on this and the above post?? thanks!

 

[kevqtmn]

When considering the Watts per Gallon theory, I have to ask....do you base it on the lumen rating or watt rating? If it is based solely on watts, I think it is virtually irrelevant. What should be taken into consideration is the amount of lumens being pushed from the lamps and into the tank.

Technically, you could have 2 identical lamp/ballast systems within two diiferent fixtures or reflector kits and get different results. Do the fixture and retrofit kit manufacturers even have the efficiency ratings of their fixtures on their product literature? In my brief research of aquarium/coral lighting, I have yet to see a manufacturer with photometric reports available, let alone UL Listings. It worries me that this information is not published and I find it very hard to believe these products have not been registered with UL.

If this doesn't seem to make much sense, let me try to put it in terms you may better understand. Suppose you have a 75 Gallon Tank and want 3 watts per gallon. If you were to buy (4) T5 HO lamps with 54 Watts each you would come up with 220 watts. But next you must also look at the ballast factor. An Osram Quicktronic T5HO ballast has a ballast factor of 1.10. You need to take the wattage and multiply by 1.10 (220 * 1.10 = 240 watts). So, on top of lamp wattage, you also need to consider ballast factor.

Now suppose you have two fixtures - Fixture A and Fixture B have identical ballast and lamp combinations with a maximum total of 20,000 lumens. Fixutre A has a reflector built with profits in mind and only has a efficacy of 85% while Fixture B was engineered for performance and has an efficacy of 98%.

Using the same exact wattage, Fixture A will push out 17,000 lumens while Fixture B will push out 19600 lumens. That is an extra 2,600 lumens! Without knowing what the fixture efficacy is, you have no idea.

I have created and built a T5 HO fixture for Industrial Warehouses with a fixture efficiency rating of 101%. I am in the midst of designing retrofit kits and fixtures for standard size aquariums utilizing both T5HO and T8 with PLUS ballast. Obviously my challenge is to achieve similar results.

The members of this site have helped me out tremendously already. In my first post I stated that I want to help you all by building quality efficient fixtures and retrofit kits. You all have given me a lot of information to kick start the research I needed. My goal is to be able to manufacture quality fixtures and kits for you and save you some money. In all honesty..I think some of the prices I have seen so far are a bit ridiculous. I hope I am not stepping on anyone's toes...but at the same time I am sure the true people of this site (the hobbyist) really don't care if I am or not. They just want good product at a FAIR price.

If you want to contact me, please email me at Kalvarez@skrenergy.com

 

[Guest]

IME the ballast factor means absolutely nothing to the output of the lamps you are using. No matter the ballast factor, the lamps are only going to put out what they can. The ballast factor is added in when doing power consumption ratings. On any Flourescent or MH lighting fixture, if you place at least 10 to 15% on top of the wattage of the lamps, you can add it up and it will equal the cost of electricty for running that fixture based on your cities price per watt.

Lumen rating on flourescent IME is not as good as MH. I am finding it now to be cheaper to go MH than Flourescent and it is better quality light.. You may want to look into making cheaper MH kits. Fact being fact, MH gives more bang for the buck and produces better results IMO. I have also found that it is cheaper to buy lights from Indoor Growing sites than Fish Store sites. Check it out... You may be surprised...

BTW, I am not trying to discourage the use of flourescent lighting...I just think MH is better...

 

[Electrobes]

for a 29 gallon tank what would be best... MH or Flo's in your opinion? I mean I guess I am going for something around 100 watts to about 120. thanks!

 

[Guest]

FW or SW? If FW, I would go Flour. For SW, PC or 1 - 175 MH with a NO Actinic..

 

[Electrobes]

oh sorry its FW, thanks

 

[Electrobes]

With the lights of America 65 watts... has anyoen tried to attach the ballast part of it away from the bulb? I want to take the light out of the casing and mount it in my 29 Gallon hood, but not exactly sure what to do with the ballast part of it. I intend to have two fans hanging from the back to cool it (this is a lift hood, so there is no back on it). Thanks everyone

 

[justDIY]

most (if not all) electronic ballasts support some degree of mounting the ballast separate from the fixture

if you can, post some pictures of the insides of these LOA lights, I've never seen one up close, and they don't sell them in Michigan

things to keep in mind about wiring is ... keep your wires as short as possible ... the more energy your ballast has to 'waste' to power a long piece of wire, is less power it has to deliver to the bulb, which means less brightness

sure, if you like EE there are rules and formulas that can be used to calculate fun things like resistance, voltage drop, capacitence, etc etc ... but those will just give you a headace ... another thing to think about, that is of little concern to most DIYers:

electronic ballasts generate and utilize "high frequency" electrical energy (around 42kHz) ... this energy when used to ionize the plasma in a bulb will not only travel through the bulb, but also radiate from it ... most fluorescent fixtures are grounded and have a metal or metalized reflector to absorb this radiation and direct it back into the electrical supply (heh, another source of problems entails with that) ... if your reflector is plywood painted white, or just a sheet of aluminum that isn't grounded, then this radiation is just being spewed forth into the room, to be absorbed by whatever is there ... if you have computers, radio or television, this can cause interference ... there is also a train of thought that big tanks need a gadget called a ground probe ... I don't know if it's even been proven that sufficient voltage differential could build up between the tank and it's surroundings as to cause a problem, but I dismissed it as another marketing ploy

if you have a millivolt scale voltmeter, set it to AC, plug one end into the ground socket on your electrical outlet, and hold the other in your hand ... then walk about the room, and notice how much voltage you are sinking from your surroundings! I measured over 4 volts at one point in time, sitting infront of a 21" crt monitor, and the room was generally full of electrical devices... sounds healthy eh?

a sidenote regarding the fans:

be sure the fans "exhaust" the hot air, don't try to blow in 'cold' air ... blowing on the bulbs with a fan will cause part of the bulb to be a lot cooler than the other parts, leading to dark spots, and could stress the bulb reducing it's lifespan and output

 

[Electrobes]

Hey everyone, well today was just awesome. For a long time I've had these 65 watt LoA's just chillin' in my closet waiting to be put into a 29 gallon hhood. I built the 29 gallon hood very poorly and gave up. Tooday though.. was just sweeeeet! I recently got a 37 gallon tank, and today I spent the entire day with my fiance creating the hood for the 37G tank. Not only did we create a beautiful hood, but managed to set the LoA very nicely into the hood. I will show pics as soon as I get my hands on a digital camera.. unfortunately I am hom and like a bum I left my camera in Gainesville. My dad was awesome for wiring the thing up and my fiance was watching my mistakes. But alas a varnished hood was created. I will honestly cry is it actually doesn't fit when I go back to my tank in gainesville but I think it should.
Believe it or not I actually have a question in all of this. I made a backless hood and was wondering what and where about fans in this size hood. I have two 65 watts running in the hood... mind you the buls are bare, I took out the self ballast and the bulb and thats all I used.. so no actual container is in this. I plan on putting an acrylic cover over the water to protect the bulbs. But yeah I am not sure where to put the two fans (if that is enough) and where.
Also should these bulbs break or something.. any one know if power compacts (which I think these LoA's are) use the same screw in power thingy (very technical as you can see). Like should my bulbs burn out or what not.. can I simply buy a better bulb (power compact) and just use the self ballasts from LoA together, so long the bulb doesn't exeed the watt consumption the original bulbs used (65 watts)? Thanks everyone!