New white oranda, Popeye

[Tank120]

I kept noticing that her eyes looked funny but she is in a translucent quarantine tub with one other fish. Since, I couldn't see properly through the side, what I could see was perfectly normal eyes. This morning I couldn't stand it any longer, so I caught her in my hands to get a close look. There are definitely clear bubbles over her eyes. The eye itself isn't protruding, which every article says that they do with popeye. I finally found an article about goldfish diseases. It stated that there was a bubble over the eye. There is no blood, no haze, just perfect clear bilateral bubbles over the eyes. I suspect I brought her home with this and did not notice it for a few days.

As part of quarantine, I did a full treatment with Maracyn Plus, gave them a few days off and then did an external parasite treatment. I have ordered metronidazole to keep on hand because I have been watching a Lionhead that occasionally has white poo. Would the best course of action be Epsom salt treatment today, followed by a full course of metronidazole? Is there a better approach to heal this.

She is in a 30 gallon tub with a Penguin 100 filter and half of the water changed and debris suctioned everyday. Unfortunately, my tap water has .25 ammonia, no nitrites and 5.0 nitrates. I have ordered media for the ammonia. Today's parameters after morning water change: pH 8.0, ammonia .50, never any nitrates always and 0 now, 10 ppm nitrate. Our normal water nitrate is 5.0. Looks like another 50% water change before I start with the salt.

If anyone has any advice as to how to better treat this, please post. Is metronidazole the best medication for popeye considering she has already gone through a complete Maracyn II treatment? She is eating but not nearly as active as the other fish. I have read umpteen million recommended dosages for Epsom Salt. Can anyone give the true dosage per gallon? I do not have a Goldfish disease book.

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[Tank120]

I had some of the Medi-gold on hand, so I put in a few pellets and she gobbled them up.

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[Tank120]

I start her on her metronidazole today. I am feeding her Medi-Gold twice a day. No change in the bubbles over the eyes yet but I just started treating yesterday. I have a perfectly healthy fish in with her, since I didn't notice the problem right away. I am going to let him go through the entire metronidazole treatment, just in case, and then move him to the other quarantine tank.

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[jlk]

I wish I had seen this sooner! Sorry! Are her eyes actually bulging from their sockets? Or are there clear bubbles on the surface of her eyeball? Is this your new white oranda?

 

[Tank120]

I have done research all over the internet and can not be sure if it is pop-eye, gas bubble disease or something else. They are perfectly bilateral clar bubbles over the eyes. You can see her eyes through the bubbles and they look perfectly normal. There does not seem to be any affect to her eyesight. You see the bubbles when looking straight down on her.

She is active and alert. Right now I am treating as an internal infection. There are Epsom Salts in her water to try to draw out the excess fluid. I have her on Medi-Gold and metronidazole. She is eating fine.

I don't see how it could be gas bubble disease as it is normal for it to start in the tail and on the sides. There are no bubbles anywhere else. Also, she us in a 30 gallon quarantine tank with a small filter and bubbler. There couldn't be much water pressure or excess nitrogen in the blood.

As far as pop-eye goes, the eyes under the clear bubbles are perfectly flat and normal when you look from the sides. So, there couldn't be pressure under the eye

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[Tank120]

I do believe that the spot that I found on her fin that I thought was an orange color change is really a circular spot of blood in the fin, as on further inspection it is red not orange. She has already had an external parasite treatment but I believe this is being caused by an internal parasite or bacteria.

I definitely need your help here. I absolutely have no ideas left. You would think she would be lethargic if it was bacterial. I chose to use the metronidazole because it can treat internal bacterial infections as well as a few internal parasites. I will try to get a picture but the bubbles are so clear that you almost can't see them through the water.

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[Tank120]

Ph 8.0, ammonia .25, nitrates 0 and nitrates 5.0. 75% water changes everyday until I started her on the metronidazole. Tomorrow it will be a 25% wc as the directions recommend.

Unfortunately, I have tested our tap water which gives readings of pH 8.0, ammonia .25, nitrates 0 and nitrates 5.0. I have researched this and these readings can change by season. The readings are within the EPAs
acceptable ranges.

I ordered black diamond charcoal with ammonia remover and also a product to help with the nitrates. I have been having to do 50% water changes everyday just to keep it at these levels.

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[Tank120]

Sorry for the long post JLK but I really need your help.

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[Tank120]

Actually, yesterday I accidentally did a 75% water change on the 125. I siphon out the patio doors and forgot about it.

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[jlk]

Is she by herself or in the big tank? Is there salt in the water? What type? We may need change or alter this accordingly.

First, no need to panic. Take a breath. You started the metro so it needs to be finished to prevent bad bug resistance. The metro may have no affect on the bubbles.

Next, do not panic if the bubbles pop. They likely will and it will look horrible. Going to stress again, do not panic if or when this happens. And do not add more additional meds.

Once the metro course is complete, I want her to have a few days off with no meds (a week would be best). Then I want you to treat her with prazi. If the bubbles are still there, I want you to increase the salinity to .3% (aq salt, not epsom) in addition to the prazi. The salt may not be needed at this point because we may use it now.

Now to the odd bubbles on the surface of the eyes. I honestly do not know exactly what they are caused by but I have encountered this before. The best answers I could come up with after talking to some other breeders are that they are caused by parasites (either flukes and/or ich). Both new fish that came down with these mysterious bubbles also showed signs of ich within a few days. So, in addition to the prazi they were getting in qt, I increased the salinity to .3%. The bubbles popped (awful looking!) but their eyes completely healed in about a week or so. Their vision was never affected by this even a bit and they are still happy and healthy. So relax a bit because things will be just fine!

 

[Tank120]

She has been in quarantine since I got her, 2-1/2 weeks.

I found the name for it....corneal edema. Yes, just the cornea has bubbled. Eyes themselves are not protruding and look normal. Should I discontinue the Epsom Salts now and start the salt bath? What dosage of aquarium salt should she be on initiatially. What is the equivalent of .3% aquarium salt per 10 gallons? Yes, this is my new white oranda. Thanks for all the help. Don't know what I would do without you.

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[jlk]

Not a salt bath. Just continue with the metro and do not add back any more Epsom as you do future wcs. After a few days of wcs, you can work on increasing the salinity in the tank while still treating.

A .3% salinity is 11.4grams of salt per gallon. If you don't have a scale to weigh it, we are going to just slightly less because it's difficult to give a precise salt dose via spoons. Different size grains of salt weigh different amounts. So, by a kitchen measuring teaspoon, measure out 2 level teaspoons per gallon. Dissolve this in a container of conditioned water (empty water bottle works fine). Then add the salt solution gradually over 24-48hrs, a little at a time.

When you do wcs, only add back the salt you remove. So for a 50% wc, add back half the total amount of salt (predissolved into solution) right along with the new water. Please ask any questions and definitely keep us posted! And don't worry!

 

[pip walters]

This sounds like mild gas bubble disease to me. Corneal edema normally causes cloudiness on the eye.

In my own experience, the bubbles in the eyes are always the last to go. The red 'blood spot' on the fin could be a damaged blood vessel where a gas bubble has burst. Hopefully, the bubbles in the eye do not cause too much damage if/when they burst, but I must stress that I have seen many fish eyes lost to this problem.

I have had limited success by reducing the volume of water in a fish's tank, which reduces pressure on the body and MAY allow the gas to be re-dissolved and eventually be expelled from the tissues. This may not work with gas bubbles in the cornea though.

May I also just say that in my opinion, it is wiser to ascertain the nature of a health problem before using several chemical treatments. Salt, as advised, is always a good starter, as it reduces stress by helping the fish maintain healthy osmoregulation.

 

[Tank120]

Okay, this may get repetitious but my posts aren't showing up for me. If you keep seeing them I apologize for the redundancy.

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[Tank120]

Okay, I gave Frost her last dose of metronidazole yesterday. I also discontinued the Medi-Gold and started her on Jump Start. She gets 3 pellets in the morning and 2 pea halves. In the evening she gets a couple of blood worms or shrimp. She has a very healthy appetite and is energetic.

I did a 50% water change this morning, waited 2 hours and changed another 50% to make sure she had excellent water. I reinstalled the filter cartridge.

Both eyes still have clear bubbles over them. They have gotten neither larger or smaller. There is now a very small amount of haze on the edge of the right eye. She is still seeing well because she will come over to me when I approach her and can see her pellets with no problems.

The small area of hemorrhage on her fin is totally gone. She is once again all white.

Should I start slowly acclimating her to the predissolved aquarium salt now or wait a week?

Also, I have to apologize. Looking back I realized that my spell checker has been changing nitrites to nitrates, so I have now put nitrites in my dictionary. I think I have mentioned before that my tap water contains .25 ammonia and 5.0 of nitrates. I know that having any level of ammonia is very bad for my fish. I tried Diamond Blend which has an ammonia remover in it on the 120 gallon and it has made no difference. It was still .25 this morning. What I really don't understand is there is never any nitrite in my tap or tank water. Considering how the chemical process should work, how is it possible not to have nitrites?

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[jlk]

Glad to hear she is happily eating now and the other issues have been resolved! Let's give her a few days on the jump start before you start something new (unless her condition takes a down turn). I want her to keep her newly rediscovered appetite!

Can you do me a favor? Do you have any distilled water or can you pick up a container of it (distilled, not purified or drinking or spring water)? I want you to test your tap, tank and the distilled for ammonia and compare them in natural sunlight. You may find they are all the same color. The low level on the ammonia test can be a bit deceiving depending on the lighting. Let me know how this turns out!

 

[Tank120]

Going to do this. I just haven't been out of the house to get some.

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[Tank120]

Distilled water had a tinge of green to it just like my tap water and tanks. Now I count .25 ammonia as a zero in all tests. Especially, since nitrites are always 0.

Bubbles is on her 4th day of Prazi. She is happy and healthy. Her left eye is the same size but her right cornea looks somewhat smaller. Where do I go from here? When the parasite treatment is done. At some point, will she be able to move to the 120 or will I have to worry about eye infections when they pop? 120 gallon-pH 8.2 (always), ammonia 0, nitrites 0. I have 10 ppm nitrates in my tap water but am able to keep it under 20.

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[jlk]

My suggestion is to take things one day at a time. Treading with prazi should be for a minimum of 3 weeks though most keepers suggest longer or cycling on/off/on over a much longer period of time. If she is happy, active and eating, you can consider gradually increasing the salinity after your next big wc (in addition to the prazi). Keep us posted!