Nitrate frustration

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That’s a beautiful tank. Are the methods you & Justin used the same as for a self-sustaining tank? I’ve only had fish for ~1.5 years. I was in awe of self-sustaining tanks for a while. The problem as I saw it was these tanks were very heavily planted & often I couldn’t see any fish. I can only assume some small guys were hanging out amongst the foliage.

I’m into big fish, several kinds of cichlids, both African & South American. These guys need wide open swimming spaces in their 125 gallon tanks. Some rip up plants. A few eat them. Would a self-sustaining tank even work for big fish?
 
That’s a beautiful tank. Are the methods you & Justin used the same as for a self-sustaining tank? I’ve only had fish for ~1.5 years. I was in awe of self-sustaining tanks for a while. The problem as I saw it was these tanks were very heavily planted & often I couldn’t see any fish. I can only assume some small guys were hanging out amongst the foliage.

I’m into big fish, several kinds of cichlids, both African & South American. These guys need wide open swimming spaces in their 125 gallon tanks. Some rip up plants. A few eat them. Would a self-sustaining tank even work for big fish?


I wouldn’t recommend without some kind of nutrient export mechanism like perhaps some kind of hydroponic system above the tank. In which case changing water is probably best.

Personally I just don’t like using tap water. Never have and I rarely drink it.
 
Yeah, we set up a simple DIY labor free water change system using PVC pipes, hosing & valves. Waste water goes into the toilet and appropriately heated conditioned water is pumped from a cooler in the tub.

Our tap water is ok, but I prefer coffee & tea. The tap water has 5ppm nitrate.

My houseplants thrive on fish pooped enriched water.

I’ll def check out Justin’s videos. Have you ever talked to him? Very nice guy, but I had some trouble with the Chinese accent. I use subtitles when watching British or Irish movies, so not strong on getting some accents.
 
I live in the UK so only watched his videos. Justin himself has decades of experience and owns a store so if that is the criteria we are using to qualify ourselves as being able to give advice then his practices should be given as much attention as others. My point being that there is evidence that no water change systems can work indefinitely.

Have a look at the aquarium coop video. They did a tour of Ocean aquarium.
 
Thank you, I will. I have no idea of the costs to phone SF from the UK, but if you do call him, he’s a chatty nice man. I think I was fortunate enough to catch him when he wasn’t busy. My cell allows calls all over the US for a low flat rate; I don’t know about international calls.

I think Justin should write a book, or has he?
 
This thread was incredibly informative. To see various fish keeping experts shed light upon their experiences in both the hobby and their related careers, which in turn affects their methodology in husbandry is extremely educational.

Not much else to add- just wanted to take a moment to appreciate this interaction.
 
:bb:How very kind of you. There are some outstanding tribal elders here.
 
Like I said, no one can really agree on what is meant by "high" nitrates. :

Just syting 'high nitrates" is nothing more than a very ambiguous term at best. :)
 
This thread was incredibly informative. To see various fish keeping experts shed light upon their experiences in both the hobby and their related careers, which in turn affects their methodology in husbandry is extremely educational.

Not much else to add- just wanted to take a moment to appreciate this interaction.


It’s not as though I’m an Ocean Aquarium fanboy. It’s just that I’ve learned to accept that many different ways work. I don’t advocate for no water changes but feel as though I need to speak up when others insist that they are absolutely imperative for tank health.

I will never class myself as an expert. There’s far too much we don’t understand and waaay too much we think we do. Be humble, keep an open mind and test for yourself [emoji846]
 
Oh….too bad this isn’t Twitter & I can’t use my vast gif library to say

AMEN!
PREACH IT!
 
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I'll toss this into the mix regarding not changing water:
There's a gentleman in FL who worked in the public water system and developed an aquarium system to not need to change water. He was/is(?) a Discus Breeder. It wasn't until years after this system had been on the market and in his hatchery that I got the chance to actually see some of his fish. His breeding pairs of Discus were very undersized for fish their ages compared to those from Jack Wattley ( who I knew personally, RIP) and Edward Schmidt-Folke (whose fish my partner purchased). In discussing this no water change system with Jack, he was not a fan as water changes are a proven method of getting fish to grow.
So to address the issue of how much nitrate is too much, I pose this: Yes, fish can live in high nitrate water (i.e. >40 ppm) but do they actually thrive in that water? In the hobbyist's tank, not getting their fish to grow to maximum size may ( and probably more often does) go unnoticed. The fish's life may also be shortened due to the higher nitrate level ( no definitive value just a value higher that the agreed upon 40ppm) or maybe something else is missing. Have you ever gone to a public aquarium and noticed that their fish are much larger than yours at home? They are the same species as yours, probably obtained from the same sources yours were and if their average lifespan is just 3-5 years and you have had your fish for almost 3 years so the fish should be similar in age, why are they so much larger?
Then I'll add to this that even if your nitrate level is kept in an "acceptable" range and/or controlled via plants for all that time, why are your fish smaller?
So what is it in or missing from your aquarium or system that is preventing your fish from growing when , keeping all other things equal, they grow faster ( and I'll say better) when you change water?
You may have the most gorgeous aquarium, planted to the hilt, water chemistry in line with "proper", your fish looking good, with sharp colors and nice and fat but if at their age they should be twice as large, are you really doing your fish a good service by not changing their water? :whistle: Just something to ponder.
 
I would love to visit the world famous Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco again. I grew up there & visited often as a kid. I have no recollection of the species on display. You think they have African & South American cichlids? It would be awesome to see great big ones.

The only mature cichlid I have that’s still growing is a beautiful blue frontosa. The previous owner said he was 5, as were the other cichlids/catfish I got from him. He mentioned the frontosa was the only one still growing and it continues to grow, a good 8” now. He’s the main reason I keep the population low in that 90 G tank.

I’m going to test the nitrate level again today in Pink’s (new to me 8 yr old Oscar). I’ll use API & the Salifert. I sure hope all these water changes are not upsetting the old girl. I’m reading the life span is 8-12 years, not 10-20 as other sources say.

I’m seeing videos of people petting their Oscars. I read this should not be done with axotles because it removes their natural slime coating. Wouldn’t it be the same for Oscars? I find it difficult to believe these aquatic animals would enjoy petting the way my cats & dogs do. I truly have no desires to stick my hand in the tanks & fondle them.
 
Hi All, I’ll need to address this post in stages as it’s a prime example of how people can use confirmation bias and inferences to validate an ideology.

I'll toss this into the mix regarding not changing water:
There's a gentleman in FL who worked in the public water system and developed an aquarium system to not need to change water. He was/is(?) a Discus Breeder. It wasn't until years after this system had been on the market and in his hatchery that I got the chance to actually see some of his fish. His breeding pairs of Discus were very undersized for fish their ages compared to those from Jack Wattley ( who I knew personally, RIP) and Edward Schmidt-Folke (whose fish my partner purchased). In discussing this no water change system with Jack, he was not a fan as water changes are a proven method of getting fish to grow.

Firstly, here we have assumption. We are using size as a metric for determining fish health. Who decided that was the metric in the first place? First we must determine if this is the correct metric for fish health before we start measuring it! This is like using lumens or watts as a metric for determining plant health and growth then saying these 120W tubes are far superior to this 80W for plants growth when the true metric is actually PAR. Suppose we argue that size is the best metric for determining fish health. How do we know what exactly it is about water changes that helps them to achieve their ‘proper’ size? How do we know if it’s the removal of hormones or nitrates that are causing an issue? Perhaps it’s the addition of something that helps? The answer is we don’t know of course. I don’t think people are actually listening to themselves when they imply that hormones are stunting fish? I mean, there truly is no evidence to support this notion whatsoever so really, why do people say it? It shows how some people believe everything they are told. But the reason they believe it is because it supports their philosophy. Even if they have never seen any evidence to support the claims. The will stick to it and try to falsify everything else.

The next question here is what is ‘undersized’ and are we only comparing this with other breeders? If so then we need to look at what other factors were involved with the no water change method as opposed to the water change method. For example, how much does the water change breeder feed? Do they need to perform regular water changes because they feed so much and does the amount they feed have any bearing on their size. What were they both feeding and how often? In no water change systems feeding may be less to avoid a deterioration in water quality? What are the sources waters of both locations and how stocked are the fish in both tanks? Is it generally true to say most species will grow larger in captivity? And if so how much can this be attributed to having a regular food source? How do the sizes compare to their wild counterparts? And are tank bred fish healthier than their wild counterparts? Again, what is the metric?

So to address the issue of how much nitrate is too much, I pose this: Yes, fish can live in high nitrate water (i.e. >40 ppm) but do they actually thrive in that water? In the hobbyist's tank, not getting their fish to grow to maximum size may ( and probably more often does) go unnoticed.

Now here, without a single one of those questions answered or even considered we immediately go after nitrate. We also see that quote again regarding ‘maxium size’. Again, how do we know that size is equal to health and what is maximum size? Do all Discus grow to the same size? Chickens are made to a saleable size very quickly in captivity, this is certainly not natural. Are they healthy? But chickens are not fish right?

The fish's life may also be shortened due to the higher nitrate level ( no definitive value just a value higher that the agreed upon 40ppm) or maybe something else is missing.

Here again we have assumptions the fishes life MAY also be shortened. May it also be lengthened? Where is the evidence here? This is just a general comment to support ideology and convince people that what you’re saying is actually true.

Have you ever gone to a public aquarium and noticed that their fish are much larger than yours at home? They are the same species as yours, probably obtained from the same sources yours were and if their average lifespan is just 3-5 years and you have had your fish for almost 3 years so the fish should be similar in age, why are they so much larger?

You cannot compare even a public aquarium to home aquarium for a whole host of reasons. Again, size is referred to as the metric with no actual evidence to suggest that this means the fish are any healthier.


Then I'll add to this that even if your nitrate level is kept in an "acceptable" range and/or controlled via plants for all that time, why are your fish smaller?

And again here. Bigger is always better right? I suppose it makes sense so it must be true.


So what is it in or missing from your aquarium or system that is preventing your fish from growing when , keeping all other things equal, they grow faster ( and I'll say better) when you change water?

Well I don’t know, you are trying convincing me that there is a problem to begin with and now all of a sudden my fish aren’t growing at all! Gulp! And let’s throw in some anecdotal association for good measure because it’s my philosophy after all.


You may have the most gorgeous aquarium, planted to the hilt, water chemistry in line with "proper", your fish looking good, with sharp colors and nice and fat but if at their age they should be twice as large, are you really doing your fish a good service by not changing their water? :whistle: Just something to ponder.

And now for the piece de resistance. ‘You might have a healthy looking tank with growing plants with acceptable water chemistry and your fish might look happy but they still suck because mine are bigger than yours and I do water changes. Finger point. Are you really doing your fish a good service???

I mean, it’s a great pitch. But this is basically everything that is wrong with this hobby. People always saying things without actually asking the real questions. Assumptions and inferences. It’s what this hobby has been built on since the 70s. The science in our field is lacking so badly it really is no surprise. I wonder what the source for hormones stunting fish growth really was. When it first started. Man that one has evolved and grown three heads. Show me a study or an ounce of evidence and perhaps I’ll change my opinion. But you can’t. Probably never will and despite this being the only fact in all of this I know that this will fall on deaf ears and run straight off the back because people have ideologies, methodologies and philosophies and there can only be one way right. WRONG. Forever wrong.
 
Marvelous insightful post. I’ve floundered from the lack of evidenced based data in the fish keeping world since the get-go, 7/21, when my interest began.
This stems from a background in biology: PhD, comparative immunology, UCLA.

Where would verifiable peer reviewed data come from, especially in larger species? I myself have refused research projects involving most live animals. I did much drosophila microsurgery. They were anesthetized and many died. I also did external surgery on living sea urchins. I wouldn’t touch any other groups, including fish. I’m hard pressed to imagine who would fund aquarium fish studies.

So where does that leave us? With anecdotal factoids? Experience? I’m talking about the larger fish species: South American and African cichlids. But does Justin from SF have any peer reviewed publications? Does he document his methods? We do know they are replicable, so that’s something.

But I hear you. I’m limited in what I can post & am overall unschooled in the hobby.
Conflicting points of view and a lack of tolerance for differing methods troubles me, but I do find validity in many aspects, such as basic tank hygiene. I’ve been reading about HITH, most likely caused by a flagellate parasite, more common among larger cichlids like Severums and Oscars. No denying from what I’m reading these large specimens are all too often kept in undersized tanks with dirty water.

I’m sorry if I can’t absorb all you’re saying and have drifted afield. I’ll take a second look later.
 
....
I’m seeing videos of people petting their Oscars. I read this should not be done with axotles because it removes their natural slime coating. Wouldn’t it be the same for Oscars? I find it difficult to believe these aquatic animals would enjoy petting the way my cats & dogs do. I truly have no desires to stick my hand in the tanks & fondle them.

If your hands are wet, you remove less slime than if they were dry. That said, in my case, I didn't "pet" my fish, he would snuggle in my hand when I put it in there and held it still. That said, in a healthy aquarium, even if the slime coat was partially wiped off, the fish could "regrow" the coat before any bacteria or fungal infections would occur. I wouldn't recommend doing this in an unhealthy aquarium.
 
Hi All, I’ll need to address this post in stages as it’s a prime example of how people can use confirmation bias and inferences to validate an ideology.
[ I'll respond in stages as well. ;) First off, I posed the question as a conversation starter not as a promotion of one method or another. But you have to agree, fish growth is different in the two systems.]



Firstly, here we have assumption. We are using size as a metric for determining fish health. Who decided that was the metric in the first place? First we must determine if this is the correct metric for fish health before we start measuring it! This is like using lumens or watts as a metric for determining plant health and growth then saying these 120W tubes are far superior to this 80W for plants growth when the true metric is actually PAR. Suppose we argue that size is the best metric for determining fish health. How do we know what exactly it is about water changes that helps them to achieve their ‘proper’ size? How do we know if it’s the removal of hormones or nitrates that are causing an issue? Perhaps it’s the addition of something that helps? The answer is we don’t know of course. I don’t think people are actually listening to themselves when they imply that hormones are stunting fish? I mean, there truly is no evidence to support this notion whatsoever so really, why do people say it? It shows how some people believe everything they are told. But the reason they believe it is because it supports their philosophy. Even if they have never seen any evidence to support the claims. The will stick to it and try to falsify everything else. [ I refer you to this in reference to hormones and growth: https://thefishvet.com/2012/02/28/do-goldfish-grow-to-the-size-of-their-tank/
and this with the extra documents at the bottom: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11048680/ ]


The next question here is what is ‘undersized’ and are we only comparing this with other breeders? If so then we need to look at what other factors were involved with the no water change method as opposed to the water change method. For example, how much does the water change breeder feed? Do they need to perform regular water changes because they feed so much and does the amount they feed have any bearing on their size. What were they both feeding and how often? In no water change systems feeding may be less to avoid a deterioration in water quality? What are the sources waters of both locations and how stocked are the fish in both tanks? Is it generally true to say most species will grow larger in captivity? And if so how much can this be attributed to having a regular food source? How do the sizes compare to their wild counterparts? And are tank bred fish healthier than their wild counterparts? Again, what is the metric? [ Growth has been the standard of measurement for most if not all species, including humans. The determinations of what the species "should be" is based, I believe, on an overall average of a large population of the members of that specie. So when a herd of mammals is studied or a school of fish is studied, more than 50% must be of similar size at the same age to gain that average. These are also, I'll admit I'm assuming this, based on wild animal populations negated issues like overcrowding of a tank or excess or reduced feeding issues. This is an interesting piece on the effects on growth when food is reduced or eliminated for periods of time: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3696842/ ]



Now here, without a single one of those questions answered or even considered we immediately go after nitrate. We also see that quote again regarding ‘maxium size’. Again, how do we know that size is equal to health and what is maximum size? Do all Discus grow to the same size? Chickens are made to a saleable size very quickly in captivity, this is certainly not natural. Are they healthy? But chickens are not fish right? [ I brought up nitrate because of it's constant presence in the aquarium ( vs temporary ammonia and nitrite) and it's known toxicity to life. The point I posed was more along the lines of If everything else was equal, would a fish in the presence of higher nitrate levels be of equal health to one kept without the presence of nitrate? If growth is the standard, it doesn't appear to be. I also didn't say it was the only reason for the lack of growth. Regarding chickens, chickens that are raised quickly and have been made so over plump that they can't walk or fly would be considered unhealthy ( compared to the majority of the chickens in the same coop) yet are deemed safe for people to eat. This might interest your chicken intuition. ;) "The lives of broiler chickens are not much easier to contemplate than those of the egg-layers. Much research has been devoted to genetic selection to produce the most economically efficient bird. The RSPCA produced a pamphlet several years ago that for me still provides the best illustration of what this means for the chickens. A series of photographs taken a few days apart showed a normal, traditionally bred egg-laying hen as it grows from chick to maturity. Underneath were parallel pictures of the modern broiler taken at the same intervals. By day nine, the broiler’s legs can barely keep its oversized breast off the ground. By day 11, it is puffed up to double the size of its cousin. It looks like an obese nine-year-old standing on the legs of a five-year-old. By day 35 it looks more like a weightlifter on steroids and dwarfs the egg-laying hen." The complete article can be read here: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/24/real-cost-of-roast-chicken-animal-welfare-farms



Here again we have assumptions the fishes life MAY also be shortened. May it also be lengthened? Where is the evidence here? This is just a general comment to support ideology and convince people that what you’re saying is actually true. [ No, it was more a point I posed to the group to see what the experiences here have been. If a 1 year old neon Tetra died at only 3/4", I'd say, no matter how healthy it looked or acted, that it's life was shortened compared to the 3-5 year average for the specie and the 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" average maximum size which it usually attains within the first year from egg. ]



You cannot compare even a public aquarium to home aquarium for a whole host of reasons. Again, size is referred to as the metric with no actual evidence to suggest that this means the fish are any healthier. [ I have to ask, Why not? Are their fish being kept in a tank? Yes. Are they feeding their fish? Yes Do they filter their water? Yes. What do they do differently than the average hobbyist to get the results they are getting? Public zoos and aquariums have a more strict guideline to follow for their animals so getting their results should the goal of every hobbyist as it's usually the best care.]




And again here. Bigger is always better right? I suppose it makes sense so it must be true. [See previous response regarding size.]




Well I don’t know, you are trying convincing me that there is a problem to begin with and now all of a sudden my fish aren’t growing at all! Gulp! And let’s throw in some anecdotal association for good measure because it’s my philosophy after all. [Not at all. ]




And now for the piece de resistance. ‘You might have a healthy looking tank with growing plants with acceptable water chemistry and your fish might look happy but they still suck because mine are bigger than yours and I do water changes. Finger point. Are you really doing your fish a good service???

I mean, it’s a great pitch. But this is basically everything that is wrong with this hobby. People always saying things without actually asking the real questions. Assumptions and inferences. It’s what this hobby has been built on since the 70s. The science in our field is lacking so badly it really is no surprise. I wonder what the source for hormones stunting fish growth really was. When it first started. Man that one has evolved and grown three heads. Show me a study or an ounce of evidence and perhaps I’ll change my opinion. But you can’t. Probably never will and despite this being the only fact in all of this I know that this will fall on deaf ears and run straight off the back because people have ideologies, methodologies and philosophies and there can only be one way right. WRONG. Forever wrong.
[ First off, the aquarium hobby has been around way longer than the 1970s. It's knowledge base goes back to the BC era. Has there been new knowledge since then? Of course. New things are being found all the time for no other reason than fish are being hybridized like crazy creating new species and new genetics that wouldn't exist in the wild. The advent of DNA testing alone has corrected the classifications of many species. The science in our field is not lacking but not searched for from reliable sources. ( I had quite a time finding the articles I posted, and I KNEW what I was looking for. :facepalm: ) There is a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of it is in online fish groups as well as the people we now depend upon in stores to know what they are doing. Just look at the hobbyist that is keeping his 10" Oscar in a 30 gallon tank for 5 years, with hole in the head clearly showing, an undersized filter and he's giving advice on how to keep fish. They are out there. :rolleyes: But the more direct point and question I was leading to in my post is WHY is there such a difference in the fish between those kept in no change systems compared to changed systems? ( I've seen fish from more than one no change system and the results were the same.) And just for the record, I don't have the definitive answer nor do I pretend that I do. I'm not advocating one method over the other. There's more than one way to keep fish in an aquarium. The methods I follow are from people much smarter and more educated ( i.e. certified Ichthyologists) than I regarding the keeping and breeding of tropical fish so that is how I advise. I'm just stating my observations from the amount of time I have spent in the hobby. Show me some proof that your way is better. It's different than mine, that's for sure. ;) It doesn't seem to get the same results that mine has gotten me. ]
 
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