Old World/New World Mix Can it be Done Successfully

[Rivers2k]

I'm acknowledging that the tank mates will not be able to remain in my 55 gallon long permanently, due to their need of more living space later on. The setup, regarding the live plants, the filtration, substrate, and food itself could be permanent if I chose. You have a point though, just because it is almost 2 years running now it could be misleading that successful means permanent. The point I try to make by saying successful is that my fish are healthy, no severe aggression outside of normal Cichlid behavior, no deaths at this point, and the fish look beautiful, thankfully.

Thanks

Sounds like people are having two different arguments. You are saying its successful because it is working right now. Others are saying its not successful because it isn't sustainable long term. On one had you are correct it is successful thus far. on the other had they are correct that this should not be recommended as a way of establishing a tank because it is not sustainable therefore will not have a successful out come.

If you choose to use your tank as an example to novice I would say this is what I did and it has worked this long but you should know that most of these fish will have to be re homed and they can't live a full life in this set up.

 

[bmarine]

Sounds like people are having two different arguments. You are saying its successful because it is working right now. Others are saying its not successful because it isn't sustainable long term. On one had you are correct it is successful thus far. on the other had they are correct that this should not be recommended as a way of establishing a tank because it is not sustainable therefore will not have a successful out come. If you choose to use your tank as an example to novice I would say this is what I did and it has worked this long but you should know that most of these fish will have to be re homed and they can't live a full life in this set up.

I definitely agree with this statement!

 

[Andrew McFadden]

Very great observation that cows and chicken are not usually seen in the natural habitats of these fish, underwater, couldn't agree more. What is present at times though are dead animals from the local ecosystems that end up in the river. These are also valuable food sources, including for cichlids.

Thanks for the feedback!

Yes that's true that they may from time to time however it is over a wide area that these would appear. Not the same fish would be munching on this and it would be shared with other anaimals. The point of the matter is its not good for their organs.

 

[Albino Sick Led]

Yes that's true that they may from time to time however it is over a wide area that these would appear. Not the same fish would be munching on this and it would be shared with other anaimals. The point of the matter is its not good for their organs.

Andrew,
I provided a logical explanation as to why I believe some cichlids are capable of eating meat and maintaining a diet with this in it (close to OP). Please inform me or educate me, why this is bad for their organs? What happens to their organs if they eat meat. I am interested in why this is? My fish have had this in their diet for quite a while now and seem to like it and are very healthy.

Thank you

 

[Andrew McFadden]

Andrew,
I provided a logical explanation as to why I believe some cichlids are capable of eating meat and maintaining a diet with this in it (close to OP). Please inform me or educate me, why this is bad for their organs? What happens to their organs if they eat meat. I am interested in why this is? My fish have had this in their diet for quite a while now and seem to like it and are very healthy.

Thank you

First off I'd like to thank you for for acting like a grown up and not taking offence to anything. I'd like to participate more on these when threads don't go sour.

Instead of me typing up lots of reasons and answers I'm just going to throw a link your way to an article to make this easier.

http://cefishessentials.com/index.php?route=news/news&news_id=15

 

[HUKIT]

Does Beefheart have a place in fish nutrition?

Typical answer and the only part I agree with is this statement "Real life evidence if ever we heard it". Because there are no studies on long term fish nutrition he's able to say whatever he wants with no scientific information to back it up.

His comment about discus breeders is also incorrect, the most famous breeder out there is Jack Watley and he discontinued beefheart and bloom worms to due digestive issues...hmm why would that be?

Here as always my response to beefheart.

The most important fact is that fish digestive systems are designed to handle certain proteins. Freshwater/Marine proteins and fats are very different than their mammal counterparts. Their digestive systems are well designed so that if the food is of a protein that can not be digested properly it will simply be expell this excess immediately. The primarily function of breaking down food is a provide energy, that which can't be processed generates a lot of waste since they're expelling what can't be used to benefit the fishes body. Proteins are made of amino acids which contain nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, so as the fish is breaking these non-native foods down they in turn make a lot more nitrogenous waste which as everyone knows will effect water quality. The last issue I have is the fish's kidneys and liver work harder than they would have trying to process foods they are not designed to digest, where as long term feeding can lead to liver or kidney failure. So not to ramble on any longer I can't see any benefits to feeding beefheart when there so many healthier choices such as salmon, nightcrawlers, shrimp prawns, and prepared pellets.

 

[Andrew McFadden]

Look who finally came out of hiding to post here and got it all likkered all up. Lol

Well the actual discussion is on the use of raw beef and chicken. I couldn't find a link to support so moved over to the use of beef heart. Figured the symptoms and issues on other organs like the liver would be the same.

 

[HUKIT]

Look who finally came out of hiding to post here and got it all likkered all up. Lol .

Like Mr. Wonka says "candy is dandy but liquor is quicker".

Well the actual discussion is on the use of raw beef and chicken. I couldn't find a link to support so moved over to the use of beef heart. Figured the symptoms and issues on other organs like the liver would be the same.

I didn't read the entire thread but caught the tail end. Mammal proteins in my opinion is hands down the worst food in terms of health, I would recommend extremely low end foods like Wardley's or Tetra as they at least they use aquatic proteins( even with lips, bones, and other junk left over from human industries) as that would be easier on the digestive system.

 

[Wy Renegade]

A number of the issues with this set-up have already been addressed; adult size, diet, and maturity of the fish being the most significant.

I'd like to address the idea of a "natural environment." While I will not disagree that your set-up is a nice attempt at mimicing a natural environment, it is hardly the natural environment of most of the fish you are stocking. In mixing fish with an optimal pH range of 6.5 with fish whose optimal pH range is 8.1, you are putting animals in a none natural environment. Now if some or all of these fish are tank raised, then they may have adjusted to live in a pH of 7 or whatever you are keeping it at, therefore they may do fine, but it still is outside their optimal range, so the use of the word "thriving" is a bit inaccurate. Certainly, as was already pointed out in the thread, placing Africans in a planted environment is hardly "natural." Years ago we used to take animals and put them in zoos in completely inappropriate settings. Those animals often reproduced. I always smile when people say that their inhabitants are healthy and happy because they are reproducing. The biological fact is that organisms have an inner drive to reproduce, and they are going to do that in spite of, and in fact often because of, adverse conditions.

 

[Freakgecko91]

A number of the issues with this set-up have already been addressed; adult size, diet, and maturity of the fish being the most significant. I'd like to address the idea of a "natural environment." While I will not disagree that your set-up is a nice attempt at mimicing a natural environment, it is hardly the natural environment of most of the fish you are stocking. In mixing fish with an optimal pH range of 6.5 with fish whose optimal pH range is 8.1, you are putting animals in a none natural environment. Now if some or all of these fish are tank raised, then they may have adjusted to live in a pH of 7 or whatever you are keeping it at, therefore they may do fine, but it still is outside their optimal range, so the use of the word "thriving" is a bit inaccurate. Certainly, as was already pointed out in the thread, placing Africans in a planted environment is hardly "natural." Years ago we used to take animals and put them in zoos in completely inappropriate settings. Those animals often reproduced. I always smile when people say that their inhabitants are healthy and happy because they are reproducing. The biological fact is that organisms have an inner drive to reproduce, and they are going to do that in spite of, and in fact often because of, adverse conditions.

Although with certain species, the act of spawning does show that certain natural stimuli are in place, like temp or pH drops in many black water species that require these things to spawn. However, I will completely agree about the inner drive to reproduce, most captive species will breed regardless of how natural their environment is because they are so far removed from nature

 

[Albino Sick Led]

Nice Article

First off I'd like to thank you for for acting like a grown up and not taking offence to anything. I'd like to participate more on these when threads don't go sour.

Instead of me typing up lots of reasons and answers I'm just going to throw a link your way to an article to make this easier.

Does Beefheart have a place in fish nutrition?

Thank you for providing something that offers information towards my questions that i have. Personally, i won't take offense if anyone on here disagrees or negatively criticizes what i think or am doing. I look forward to the different ideas on here and knowledgeable information.I try to keep an open mind to the possibilities of doing things in different ways, one of the beauties of having forums such as these.

Regarding the article... There were a couple of ideas i think which are mentioned by this article that do not apply to the cichlids i have. This article concentrates specifically on discus, which from my understanding are a type of cichlid but require stricter guidelines than African or Southern/Central American Cichlids, such as higher water temperatures and pristine water conditions which have to be monitored strictly. A more "fragile" cichlid that requires greater care.
Also, the article concentrates specifically on beef heart, which i know you mentioned was the closest you could find to raw steak/chicken. Steak/Chicken would not affect a Rift valley cichlid or Southern/Central American cichlids the same way it would Discus, me personally, i would probably not feed this to discuss or even live feed given that they seem to be more sensitive to changes. I actually believe this article points out very good points which coincide with what i believe as well. I will quote directly from article and emphasize a bit of what i understood from it


"Ill-informed speculation about the poor digestion of mammalian saturated fats has always led to the ignorant assumption that the presence of these specific fats in the discus diet causes blockages in the digestive system. In fact this is not the case, it is EXCESS levels of these mammalian fats which are usually the cause of digestive (particularly Excretory) problems. This is due to minor differences in the types of enzymes present within the digestive tract. Digestion and excretion of the correct concentrations of these fats occurs unproblematically as part of the usual digestive process. Some of the saturated fats are not able to be completely digested and during digestion they are partially broken down and as with all unwanted fats on undigestable materials are simply passed through."

I agree with this. I think that in feeding Muscle tissue/Meat Protein/ Steak/ Chicken, etc, the fat around the meat is what would cause bloating or inflammation in a Cichlids stomach or digestive tract. For this reason, and maybe i did not mention this before, there are certain steps i take to prepping meat given to my fish

1. Remove fat from meat
2. Cut into pieces similar to their pellet food size which i know they have no problem digesting, maybe even on the smaller side to be honest.
3. Hand feed to try and minimize excessive eating by one particular fish(the dominant ones usually)
4. This is provided in intervals, not daily. Sometimes i may go a full month without feeding steak/chicken but during these times i might substitute with live feed such as live shrimp or feeder fish bred at my LFS.


Towards the end of the article, it states:

Whilst the latter may be true of low quality, less complex beef heart products there is no evidence, peer reviewed or published research to suggest that feeding beef heart has any negative effect on the life span of discus fish (or others). While it is still essential not to disregard any possibility until scientific evidence is confirmed, we must observe our own use of the food and note that it has been in use as a sole product in the hatcheries of the worlds most prolific discus fish breeders for decades leaving us with no proof of ill effects as of yet. Real life evidence if ever we heard it.


The end of the article concludes that while these may be observations or theories which have knowledgeably been thought of, there is no "concrete evidence" or "scientific proof" what the direct negative correlation between beef heart and the life span of discus, or other fish, is.

I appreciated the feedback and information you have provided. I don't disagree with your point of view Andrew, this still has not provided information that would regard my choice of diet to my fish as unhealthy or have a long term negative effect on my fish. I really enjoy all feedback and am happy that this thread has opened up the way it has.

 

[AtoZ Cichlids]

Is that Tank mixed live and plastic plants?

 

[Albino Sick Led]

Is that Tank mixed live and plastic plants?

All true aquatic live plants, no fake plants

 

[jtez]

I commend the maturity in this thread. It was nice to see the heatedness from the start of this thread dissipate and become a thorough discussion between some experienced, knowledgeable people and reading through very in depth information. Thanks guys.

 

[Albino Sick Led]

Just uploading some photos I took yesterday. About time to trim the plants soon again.

 

[Albino Sick Led]

One if my favorite in here

 

[Rivers2k]

nice pics.

 

[Tparkening]

Sometimes when I find road kill on my trips out of town, upon return I cut it up and feed it to my cichlids. They love it and are so happy- I swear they smile.

No hate from my direction brother.

 

[jahonnimyfav101]

Never feed cichlids human food meat,beef heart ,eggs etc. it can ruin the digestive system

 

[Albino Sick Led]

Bump to page one of thread!