P2P/RIAA/MPAA/etc, etc: Your stance...

[fishfreek]

Yes!

$.99 per song from many different sources.

Infact the pay to download per song model of licensing makes alot of sense to the consumer and the artists. Think about it this way. How many albums do you have that you truly like EVERY song on the album? If your like me and those I know not to many of your albums are like that. And some you might only have 2-4 songs out of the dozen or so that you like to listen to. Why spend the $12-16 for the pleasure of having those few songs when you can spend more like $2-4 and have only the ones you like.

Its quite funny I have heard people talk about the $.99/song downloads as being a scam because it does not save you any money. I tell them this is true if you download the entire album at that price but why get the whole album unless you like the whole album.

 

[Atari]

Ironically what you just described only came about because of the advent of Napster and P2P.

 

[Sparky]

Its quite funny I have heard people talk about the $.99/song downloads as being a scam because it does not save you any money. I tell them this is true if you download the entire album at that price but why get the whole album unless you like the whole album.

Very good point Fishfreak, my wife does that occasionally. Another thing is that you really can log onto places like Amazon.com and actually listen to most of the songs on a CD. You only get to listen to a small (usually half) portion of the song, but you can pretty easily make up your mind as to how many of the songs you like and decide if you want to purchase the whole CD or not. If not you can just purchase the download of that song only.

Another interesting point is this:

On some of the sites, (I can't remember which ones I will have to ask the wife), you can download songs for a small fee, but you can only listen to them either on your computer or some device that you purchase. You cannot burn them to a CD to let's say play them on the stereo at home or in your car. Now that sucks.

Mike

 

[ferret]

I don't have time to read the whole thread right now, but here's my 2 cents:

I use P2P, somewhat infrequently, more frequently in the past. I haven't used it less because of the legal suits, but more out of er.. laziness. I rarely download movies, if ever. I sometimes download programs. More often, I download anime and music.

Now, why do I do this?

Because I'm 'poor' .. I don't consider myself poor, but I'm not exactly rich. I simply cannot afford currently to pay $20 every time an artist I like puts out a cd, or a new game comes out, or in the case of anime, it isn't available in the US.

I'll split it into those categories:

Music: I listen to a lot of techno. This is hard to find in the US in some cases, and general expensive. So I download large 80+ meg MP3s that people record at live shows and such, or even full length CD-rips. Most of these are only released in Europe. I have no regrets in downloading them. For American music, I'll use Linkin Park as an example. I like them, but I didn't have money when their three cds were released. So I downloaded, and when I had money, purchased. In the case of non-techno music, I use mp3s to either (a) backup a cd I own, or (b), preview a cd before I spend $20 on it, and in general if I don't buy it, I delete every but like 1-2 songs I really like.

Games: Gaming is a different subject. Illegal copies of games in general, cannot be played online. Multiplayer is in general the biggest draw in a game for me, for replay value. In general, I download games for three reasons: (a) To preview then purchase, (b) Because it only has single player and I don't want to pay $55 to play the game once.. If it was a console game instead of PC, I'd just rent it once for $4 at Blockbuster, (c) The local stores have not stocked the game yet and I MUST PLAY IT!. (c) is currently happening to me with Doom 3. None of the stores have it yet, even though the release date is two days past, so last night I gave in and started downloading it. As soon as its available locally, I will be purchasing it.

Anime: Whee. Well. Anime has a few programs. Either its not available in the US, drasticly censors or edited in the US, or prohibitly expensive. Where a normal DVD runs about $15-20, anime DVDs can run as high as $40 a piece. Since most animes are tv series, ie 26+ episode and roughly 6-8 DVDs, this is a VERY expensive hobby. I simply can't afford to do anything BUT download anime if I want to see the newest shows. I do occasionally purchase anime, but only when I can find a nice bargain (I've picked up the first 85 or so episodes of Sailor Moon (Or my wife did) for only $80 recently. Great buy).

So yeah. Hi

 

[Atari]

So basically, you steal because you can Let's face it, nowhere near as many people did this sort of thing before the internet came along. As stated already, at the end of the day it's a moral and ethical decision, and no amount of justification can change that.

Just playing devils advocate.. I hardly consider myself a saint in this subject.

 

[Bearfan]

I would offer my opinions on this, but it would most likely anger many people and possible result in revoke of access.


So, I'll just say this. Nice topic

Ditto.

 

[Bearfan]

As stated already, at the end of the day it's a moral and ethical decision, and no amount of justification can change that.

I have a major problem with the price gouging the industry does. It costs less than $0.25 to make a CD with case, and so many people have a finger in it, they jack up the price to $18. I've seen MTV's Cribs, the performers are NOT suffering, the consumer is. Movies I understand a little bit more due to the cost of making them, but the cost of making a CD is minor in comparison.

File sharing has been around since we found out how to double side 5 1/4 floppies on an Apple IIE. It was done then, it is done now. People take measures to prevent it, people take measures to defeat these measures.

 

[Atari]

LOL, actually file sharing has been around since software came on audio cassettes My point was that the internet has made it far easier for masses upon masses of people to get stuff for free.

Like I said, I have nothing against doing it, I just don't agree with trying to justify stealing because you consider something to be too expensive. Let's face it, none of these items are anything we need.. it's things we want. Just like the example about the camera, I really want a particular car but I don't go out and steal it because I know I'd get caught How many people would continue to download if the chances of getting caught were just as high?

 

[tbonem91]

yeah, I know it isnt right but in your example, a physical object doesnt really compare quite the same... imagine this:

you really want that camera and you have a machine that has the capability to duplicate it for you (think Star Trek) and you have an extremely low chance of getting caught, all you need is to be able to see the camera and you can make a real copy for yourself. Maybe your mind would change a little, maybe not.

In the end, it is wrong, illegal and a morally bad choice to make.... but it is sooo tempting to so many people

I know high prices and profit for the makers are not a reason to steal but if those prices were to drop I still feel that the amount of stolen material would in turn drop off as well.

 

[Atari]

Well now that everyone can burn their own CD/DVD's it IS the same thing because you end up with a physical copy that is an exact digital replica.

 

[deli_conker]

Our level of technology has far exceeded our level of morals.

People take measures to prevent it, people take measures to defeat these measures.

Same old story. I remember when my brother bought the emerson boom box that had dual cassette high speed dubbing. The industry's downfall had begun...

I remember having all sorts of cracked games for my commodore 64. There were no best buys and circuit cities where you could buy them at, so you traded with other people that did have them.

P2P has way too many exploits, spy/malware and viruses for my taste. There are better ways...(not that I would know any of them, or more realistically, have time to actually make use of them). I just don't have time to deal with all the crap that comes along with free music, video, programs. I find it more convenient just to buy it instead.

I used to consult at a company where all the members of the IS department brought in cds and a couple guys would rip them and put them up on a snap server. Anybody in the department at any location could hear anything from a selection of about 130Gb of mp3's. There was no file swapping, and the originals were purchased. Is that a bad thing?

The way I see it, people are going to do what they want to do. Remember being underage and wanting cigarettes or beer? It was illegal, but not difficult to pull off. It's the same thing here, if people want something bad enough, they will get it, illegal or not.

 

[ferret]

Ahh, you missed my point. I wasn't trying to justify it. I was merely saying WHY I did it. Stealing is stealing. Before the internet, we swapped floppies, before CD, audio cassettes. This is nothing new, though yes, there's probably more people doing it now.

But the plain fact of the matter is, I don't care. I honestly don't. If my options are "Pay electrical bill" or "Get CD by a band I really like", I'm paying the electrical bill and downloading the cd, too bad for the RIAA, maybe I'll buy it next paycheck. If the cost of a cd was still around $10-12 like it was years ago, I'd snap them up. But then that was also back when I had an allowance instead of a job, and no bills to pay.

I steal. I will continue to steal. I am not taking money out of the hands of the artist, because they would not have had my money anyways: I have none to give them, most months.

Its not "moral". Its not "legal". But I don't care because the RIAA has created itself a PR nightmare. I buy when I can, and when I can't I turn to the internet. Music is a form of art and entertainment, and makes my life more enjoyable. Just because the RIAA wants to live in a $50,000,000 mansion doesn't mean I'm gonna pay $18 for every record I want to hear.

Call me criminal

 

[tbonem91]

you bring up a good point - their big cry for lawsuits was because they were losing profits and blamed the p2p sharing of music for it.

I know many people who are not contributing to their loss of profit because all the songs they download would not have been bought in the first place. If the technology wasnt there to DL them, they would probably just listen to the radio (which I do now anyway) and the money never would have been in their pocket to begin with.

 

[Atari]

HEh.. for some reason this thread is making me want to go dig up my DVD of Antitrust Yay for open source! Power to the people!

 

[ferret]

HEh.. for some reason this thread is making me want to go dig up my DVD of Antitrust Yay for open source! Power to the people!

rofl, that movie was absolutely horrible ;P In a hilariously horrible way ;p

 

[deli_conker]

Call me criminal

You criminal...

 

[Sparky]

you bring up a good point - their big cry for lawsuits was because they were losing profits and blamed the p2p sharing of music for it.

Well, it looks like to me that the man to blame is Al Gore, everyone knows "he invented the internet". LMAO.

While we are at it, lets blame Phillips Electronics for making the VCR, Compact Disc, and of coarse the ever popular DVD. I really don't know if they invented all these items, but you can bet your butt they probably has some input on it. Maybe the RIAA should push for legislation to "ban" all types of recording media except vinyl, I never could make another copy on vinyl....LOL
Good ole records...they should have stopped while they were ahead.

Direct TV has used the same tactics to coerce money from people. They sue you, and knowing that you have to pay big bucks for a lawyer, will "offer" you a settlement out of court. It looks good. About the same as you would spend on the lawyer, so they get their money and you get away free, just a little short of cash. Sad thing is, they have sued people who don't steal their signal, but own a device that is capable of stealing the signal, so right away they are guilty in the eyes of Direct TV and they get sued. Courts are now (finally) realizing this and throwing many of these cases out for lack of proof on the Direct TV's part. So whats to come of this?.....Will we get sued because we own a CD Burner, A DVD Burner, a VCR, a BetaMax (forget that one)......you can easily copy anything with any of those devices. Ah the good ole days when life was simple....

I know this is not the same as the RIAA thing that is going on, but they borrowed a page from Direct TV on the lawsuit stuff. Do a search on the internet for court cases about media theft or the RIAA, you would be surprised to find that they have also lost alot of cases when the people decided to fight. These same people have turned around and sued them on a number of counts and have recieved settlements from them. They wouldn't want you to know that though. The media doesn't report that, just the folks that got busted and paid. (You would think that maybe I don't like the media or something?)....LOL
They have created a technological monster. Everytime they cut off a head, two grows back. They will never stop what is going on. At one point they need to realize that they need to stop the bleeding. Instead of pouring money into take 13 year old girls to court and asking for thousands of dollars in retribution, they should take that money to develope ways to "make" money from the monster that they created. Buying $.99 cent songs is a start.

Stepping down from the soap box now...next!

Mike

 

[shawmutt]

Here’s an idea that will make everyone happy all around: You want a CD collection but don’t have the money? Remember Columbia House and BMG—the old snail-mail order catalogs? They’re still around! They even have web sites http://www.columbiahouse.com/sa/ch/homepage.jsp and http://www.bmg.com/ You can get awesome deals, including 12 initial free CDs (the shipping’s like $2.50 a CD, but still cheaper than $20). They also have DVD clubs.

Jeez why did that sound like a commercial?

Well, I got to go, MY FISH STUFF HAS ARRIVED!!!!!!!!!

 

[ferret]

Well, I got to go, MY FISH STUFF HAS ARRIVED!!!!!!!!!

Another good point. Money must be spent wisely. I'd rather spend it on fish stuff. Fish stuff is MUCH harder to steal

 

[Toirtis]

...of course, its legal up here....

So was decrypting of Direct TV signals until about a year ago. That is another subject where people have been sued.

Here our supreme court already overturned such lawsuits, so its pretty much open season. I know very few peple that DL anything more than the very occasional song anyways...I have never borthered myself, as I have no real desire/need to, and don't trust the software and systems used to do so anyways....I like being virus and spyware free.