Partial Water changes Re: Too Clean?

[fynnie]

Im just looking for some opens on this matter.
I just recently had 10 rainbow cichlids, they were on loan from a local breeder to help me cycle a new 32 gallon tank.
The ph of the tank is a consistent 7.2 thanks to a layer of peat under the gravel
The Ammonia is 0 ppm
The Nitrites are 0 ppm
The temperature is a constant 79 degrees
I tend to do PWC's every 4 days on all of my tanks using a good dechlorinator when the fresh goes in. The average amount of water I tend to change is 30-40%.
Aquarium salt is added 1 tbsp per 5 gallons once a month.
All of my other fish thrive on this, including another 15 gallon tank that was started about the same time.
The cichlids for the most part 75% LOVED it and immediately went into a breeding wiggle within a week.
3 Outright died after seeming to gasp for air on the bottom of the tank.
I asked the Breeder about what could have possibly gone wrong, his answer was that the water was too clean. Too clean? That just dosent seem right. What do you think?

 

[supermazz9]

geez...too clean? I'm no genious, and I sure don't know everything about aquariums, but too clean? That seems a little week.

Are you using Ammo Lock or something similar to "bypass" the cycle? I'm guessing you're not, but just checking.

I don't do salt in my tanks, but out of curiosity, why are you adding salt once a month when you're doing PWC's 3 times a fortnight? In my head, I'm thinking that by the time you add salt, you've got nothing left in your tank, since your PWC has removed it all, with doing it like 8 times a month. I may be totally wrong on this, but wouldn't you add salt at every change? For every 5g added, 1 tbsp added, at every PWC? Please, somebody educate me. My guess is something about salt content going wrong, but I know I'm off on this.

Another question from me...are cichlids a good choice for a fish cycle? I'm biased, yes...I don't like a fish cycle, I don't think it's right, and I don't think there's any reason to not do a fishless cycle, but that's just me. I'm a cranky old pr$#k. I'm guessing you've had this for a while, as you say you're adding salt every month, so your cycle is complete. Did the breeder load you any seed material?

Is your tank planted?

 

[Fishyfanatic]

The salt isn't needed at all unless you have brackish fish and are using marine salt. But if they are FW fish and you are using aquarium salt, it's not needed at all.

Their is such a thing as "too clean". If the fish were coming from 160 Nitrates and put in 0 Nitrates, it can cause shock. But that is if they are using to living in high Nitrates.

Did you put all those cichlids in that tank at the same time?

 

[joannde]

I don't do salt in my tanks, but out of curiosity, why are you adding salt once a month when you're doing PWC's 3 times a fortnight? In my head, I'm thinking that by the time you add salt, you've got nothing left in your tank, since your PWC has removed it all, with doing it like 8 times a month. I may be totally wrong on this, but wouldn't you add salt at every change? For every 5g added, 1 tbsp added, at every PWC? Please, somebody educate me. My guess is something about salt content going wrong, but I know I'm off on this.

That was my thought also. This method would result in highly fluctuating salt content not a stable salt content and as we know, stability is often the key to success in this hobby.

 

[amosf]

I do use salt. I'm in a hot tropical area and without salt I have an instant fungal problem. But with salt you need to keep the concentration consistent. If you do a PWC then you add the amount of salt needed for that amount of new water. You can't do a PWC every 4 days and then arbitrarily add salt once per month. You would have no idea of what salt concentration you had.

Now here we are talking about cichlids, which will likely need even more care in keeping the water in appropriate concentrations - lake salts, etc...

No such thing as too clean as far as I'm concerned. The only issues cycling a tank would be ammonia and nitrite levels. You keep up with that by testing and pwc. It almost sounds like the fish were gasping due to ammonia or nitrite, but the tests were negative... Correct?

As for fishy cycling. Well if you must do it then start with a small number of fish. They might as well be whatever you plan on keeping. You can gradually build up numbers as the tank matures...

In this case there is another tank. The new tank would be best started with seed bacteria from the other tank. Move over as much filter media and gravel as you dare. You can remove half the bacteria media in an established tank and it will have a little minicycle and back to normal in a day. That media would be a big help in another tank.

 

[fynnie]

The aquarium that I added the loaners into was just right at the beginning, and needed to cycle. I was going to go the fishless cycle, but got talked into taking these fish home. And in truth told I felt sorry for them there was about 50 stuffed into a 33 gallon tank ( all were about 4 inches long). Their water looked like sh*t and was full of their own wastes. I cant admit that I wasnt also excited about getting to know a different type of fish for free.
The tank I added them into at home was stuffed with seeded materials from established tanks the media from a couple of HOB filters went into the new HOB, 3 cups of gravel , and decor brought from a very old tank.
I have up to this point only been adding the aquarium salt once a month to make sure that the concentrations didnt get too high, although it makes sense now to add it at every change, and will do that now. One lesson learned.

 

[JDogg]

I have up to this point only been adding the aquarium salt once a month to make sure that the concentrations didnt get too high, although it makes sense now to add it at every change, and will do that now. One lesson learned.

why are you adding it at all?

 

[fynnie]

I am adding salt ( aquarium) because I was told it was better for any fish to have the benefits it offered ( ie: making less work for their kidneys) But then that was from my LFS and some of the advice I have had from there has sucked in the past.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I would stop using the salt. I used it all the time at the beginning but stopped using it after advice from fellow AAers. I honestly did not see a change at all in my fish.

 

[malkore]

its not the salt. if this is a new tank, that you're cycling, you cannot possibly have no ammonia or nitrite.
what are your nitrates at? if they are also 0ppm, then you have a faulty test kit.

gasping at the surface means there's either not enough oxygen in the water, or, ammonia poisoning is suffocating the fish...or...nitrite poisoning is ruining the fishes ability to pull oxygen out of the water and into the bloodstream so they again are suffocating.

it could be not enough surface agitation, so not enough oxygen in the water...but I'd pretty much put money on one of your test kits not showing that you have dangerous levels of ammonia and/or nitrite. if the fish gills seem red with inflammation, its probably nitrite related.

 

[fynnie]

I have returned the fish to the breeder, and I would say about 1/4 of the fish in their tank were gasping too, The gills however werent red. Neither were the loaners.
I do have a pretty good amount of oxygen agitation in the tank with a air stone, a bubble wall and a sponge biological filter.
Just as a check I took a sample into a chain type LPS and the ph measured 7.2, the amonia wasnt readable and neither were the nitrites, but the nitrates were coming up.
Not to clear myself of doubt in my fish wrangling but I am wondering if these fish that died were doomed from the start. I mentioned before that the tank they came from was none too clean and was stuffed with fish. When I did return the fish to the breeders I really had a good look at them. Many had deformities of the eyes and fins. One had its tail chew right off. As well I counted 15 laying on the bottom gasping in obvious distress. Two were being consumed post mortem. Really gross. And I asked about salt as I had been told there to add salt as well, and the answer I got was to just use coarse pickling salt as aquarium salt was too expensive.
I am beginning to think that even though I did use the fish to cycle the tank, ( something I will never do again, too hard on my concience.) Maybe these fish were already badly stressed and it was just too much for them to handle.

 

[supermazz9]

Their is such a thing as "too clean". If the fish were coming from 160 Nitrates and put in 0 Nitrates, it can cause shock. But that is if they are using to living in high Nitrates.

Is this really true? I'm thinking to myself that if I lived in a room that had a high (insert bad gas) content and all of a sudden it got vented and the room was now full of clean fresh air, I might be shocked that someone was nice enough to do that for me, but I don't think I'd go into shock. Of course, I'm not a fish.

What's a typical nitrate toxic level anyway?

That being said, it's still kinda irrevelant, since he's been doing PWC's all along. His tank has always been clean. The only shock his fish would likely have recieved would be due to transport and reacclimation.

I'm interested in a response about the nitrates, seeing as I don't buy this too clean thing. Yah, stability is one thing, like when you're talking about pH, or the like, but nitrates? The nitrates fluctuate all the time in my tank with PWC's.