pH all over the place!!??

[MyameeGirl]

Hi everyone,

Just a quick synopsis of my problem:

Since setting up my tank (May 2011), my pH has always been a consistent 7.6, straight from the tap. I noticed last week that my pH had dropped down to 7.0 and then a few days later dropped again down to 6.6. (All I have in the tank is a betta, apple snail, amano shrimp, two amazon sword plants, and two marimo balls).

I started to do an extra water change during the week in order to keep the pH from falling so drastically, so to kind of catch it at the 7.0 mark and have it bounce back up from there.

In the meantime, my betta is having trouble with a fin so I added 15ml of betta spa to my 6.6 gallon tank (as per instruction on bottle) yesterday and when I checked my water last night the pH was at 6.4!!

This morning, I did a pwc of about 25% and when I checked the water again, the pH is still at only 6.6.

I tested the water directly from my tap as well and now it's at 8.8???

My building had the water shut off last week for a bit last week to "work on the pipes", so I'm wondering if they could have done something to raise the pH in our tap water?

I'm really not sure what to do in order to even all this out. Do I do a big water change to get the betta spa out of there, or is that still okay to use? Do I add some pH Up?

My amano shrimp was dead on the floor this morning so I'm wondering if the low pH made him leave the tank. I have a snail in there so I don't know if it's harming him as well.

My water parameters are: pH 6.6, Amm 0, Nitrite 0, and Nitrate 15-20%

Any advice or instruction is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

~ Mona

 

[bruinsbro1997]

What is bettaspa? If it is a shelf product that is used to "cure" bettas it usually does not work and has added chemicals that could have possibly killed your amano shrimp if it had copper in it. pH naturally softens over time unless you have a buffer so it eventually goes down. Are you using any products? Do not add pH up, it is a useless product IMO that does nothing and will only hurt your fish because of added chemicals. It's best to leave the pH alone if the fish seem fine with it.

 

[MyameeGirl]

What is bettaspa? If it is a shelf product that is used to "cure" bettas it usually does not work and has added chemicals that could have possibly killed your amano shrimp if it had copper in it. pH naturally softens over time unless you have a buffer so it eventually goes down. Are you using any products? Do not add pH up, it is a useless product IMO that does nothing and will only hurt your fish because of added chemicals. It's best to leave the pH alone if the fish seem fine with it.

The only product that I put in other than the betta spa is my water conditioner. I use Prime by Seachem. I ran out and used some Stress Coat, but don't think that would do anything.

Betta spa is a conditioner that contains almond leaf extract, which is non toxic and doesn't add chemicals to the water. In fact, it helps to bind ammonia and contains calcium. It's nothing like betafix or melafix, or whatever those are called. It creates a more natural environment for the betta. I know people who use it all the time with no problems. I just wasn't sure if the drop in pH alone could have had my shrimp wander off.

As for my shrimp, it was hitting the floor and having no water that probably killed him and from what I've read on here, amano shrimp are notorious escape artists and do that all the time. I just thought that maybe the ph drop prompted it in mine. Poor guy!

I did a bit more research on the pH up/down, and yeah, I won't be using that at all.

I still don't know what to do about my pH level though...

 

[bruinsbro1997]

Ah, THERE is your culprit! The bettaspa! If it contains almond leaf extract THAT is what's lowering your pH, almond leaf is found in blackwater ponds I believe and releases tannins in the water that lowers your pH. Is your water coffee-colored?

 

[MyameeGirl]

Ah, THERE is your culprit! The bettaspa! If it contains almond leaf extract THAT is what's lowering your pH, almond leaf is found in blackwater ponds I believe and releases tannins in the water that lowers your pH. Is your water coffee-colored?

Yep, the water is tea color.

I know that it lowers the pH, but I only added it yesterday. My pH dropped from 7.6 to 6.6 from last week, and then 6.6 to 6.4 after adding the betta spa.

 

[bruinsbro1997]

Ah...hmm, it is possible that there is another culprit we have not found yet. Is there any driftwood or bogwood in your tank? Are you using peat filtration? There are a numerous number of factors that can come into play.

 

[MyameeGirl]

All I have in my tank (aside from my betta and apple snail) are two amazon sword plants and two marimo balls. I have a fluval chi, so not sure what kind of filter you'd call it. It uses a filter pad and then a foam filter above that to filter the water. It pulls water up through the center filter piece at the top of the tank and then filters it through those two filters and cascades the water back into the tank via a little waterfall thingy. There's nothing else in the tank.

Someone had told me once that uneaten food in the tank can cause acid which can lower pH? I spot clean the tank with my syphon when I clean it, had a shrimp in there and a snail and I only have one fish. I usually don't see any left over food in there, but I guess that could be a possibility?

 

[bruinsbro1997]

Possibly, but I have never heard of food lowering your pH, that's new. What products are you using on your water?

 

[eco23]

The work on the pipes is definitely linked IMO. Shutting off and/or flushing pipes can cause fluctuations in dissolved solids and cause pH swings. One thing to try is take a glass of tap water, test and record the level, then stick an airstone in it for 24 hours and test it after that time. It's likely something is buffering the water and after it gasses out it's causing the pH to plummet.

If the pH continues to fluctuate, it may be a good idea to consider adding a natural buffering agent like CC (crushed coral) or aragonite in a mesh bag and place it in the filter. That will hold the pH steady.

 

[MyameeGirl]

The work on the pipes is definitely linked IMO. Shutting off and/or flushing pipes can cause fluctuations in dissolved solids and cause pH swings. One thing to try is take a glass of tap water, test and record the level, then stick an airstone in it for 24 hours and test it after that time. It's likely something is buffering the water and after it gasses out it's causing the pH to plummet.

If the pH continues to fluctuate, it may be a good idea to consider adding a natural buffering agent like CC (crushed coral) or aragonite in a mesh bag and place it in the filter. That will hold the pH steady.

Thanks, I'll have to try that.

If I have to use the buffering agent, I'm sure my filter is way too small to hold anything other than the two filters it is designed to, but I think I read a post where you told someone that placing it in the substrate is just as good. Do you know if this is a permanent thing (IF it is indeed becuase of the pipe work), or will it work itself out again?

 

[MyameeGirl]

Possibly, but I have never heard of food lowering your pH, that's new. What products are you using on your water?

The guy who told me is quite an expert...30+ years with freshwater tanks, so I'm sure that it could, but he has big community tanks with lots of food. I have a betta that we feed by hand and a snail/shrimp that I would give a mini wafer to. No extra food floating around.

I use Seachem Prime and if I run out I have some back up API Stress Coat.

 

[eco23]

Thanks, I'll have to try that.

If I have to use the buffering agent, I'm sure my filter is way too small to hold anything other than the two filters it is designed to, but I think I read a post where you told someone that placing it in the substrate is just as good.

It gets dispersed better in the filter, but it can be efficient anywhere. Some people even bury the mesh bag under the substrate (though to me that seems a bit questionable). Just make sure you add it slowly. Only put a small handful in a mesh media bag or unwashed stocking and check the pH after a while. Adding too much too quickly can rocket the pH, hardness and alkalinity up and be bad for your fish. The key will be to slowly add it in over the course of a few days until you find the right amount of where it will hold your natural pH value steady (which you'll know after your 24 hour test), but not cause extreme pH swings all at once by adding it too fast . I normally don't vote for altering water chemistry, but with the fluctuations you're having I think it'd be a great tool for you. Plus CC is basically just ground up shells, so it's something natural rather than a bottle of chemicals.

 

[MyameeGirl]

Thanks.
I will try that, and hopefully get it to a steady level.
My Betta has gotten two small holes in his anal fin over the past few days, so I'm not sure if that has something to do with the fluctuations or not.

Thanks again for stopping in and reading the post Eco!

 

[eco23]

Thanks.
I will try that, and hopefully get it to a steady level.
My Betta has gotten two small holes in his anal fin over the past few days, so I'm not sure if that has something to do with the fluctuations or not.

Thanks again for stopping in and reading the post Eco!

I'm addicted to the site, happy to stop in . People probably get tired of seeing my name, lol.

I'm really not familiar with fin rot or or other illnesses, but a quick bit of research showed that tears or holes in their fins can be caused by poor water conditions INCLUDING fluctuating pH. I do know their fins heal easily once the water has leveled out...so hopefully it's something that will fix itself once we get the pH sorted out. Just make sure you're always keeping an eye on your ammo and no2 because I know levels of those toxins are normally the cause...but I think we can blame the pH in this situation because it will stress them, weaken their immune system and make them more susceptible to illness.

 

[MyameeGirl]

I'm addicted to the site, happy to stop in . People probably get tired of seeing my name, lol.

I'm really not familiar with fin rot or or other illnesses, but a quick bit of research showed that tears or holes in their fins can be caused by poor water conditions INCLUDING fluctuating pH. I do know their fins heal easily once the water has leveled out...so hopefully it's something that will fix itself once we get the pH sorted out. Just make sure you're always keeping an eye on your ammo and no2 because I know levels of those toxins are normally the cause...but I think we can blame the pH in this situation because it will stress them, weaken their immune system and make them more susceptible to illness.

So does that mean that a low pH is okay for the moment as long as it's consistent, or should my pH be raised as close to 7.0 as soon as possible?

Yeah, my amm/no2 are all good and within the right parameters.

I'm hoping that's what the holes are caused from then and NOT fin rot.

Should I discontinue the betta spa, or do you think that's helping keep the pH lower in my tank instead of the 8.8 that's coming out of my tap?

 

[eco23]

So does that mean that a low pH is okay for the moment as long as it's consistent, or should my pH be raised as close to 7.0 as soon as possible?

Yeah, my amm/no2 are all good and within the right parameters.

I'm hoping that's what the holes are caused from then and NOT fin rot.

Should I discontinue the betta spa, or do you think that's helping keep the pH lower in my tank instead of the 8.8 that's coming out of my tank?

Consistency is ideal, and slowly raising it to the tap waters actual value (again, which you'll know after your glass of water and airstone test) is, in my opinion, the best action.

That said, I personally wouldn't be afraid to do water changes....in fact I'd do them often (possibly daily) until you can start adding the CC. I've heard some good arguments lately that it is not the actual pH changes that are dangerous...but is the things like GH (hardness) and kH (alkalinity) swings which cause damage. For example, some of the expert planted tank guys that run co2 setups for their plants have really big swings in pH during a 24 hour period, but since the GH and kH stay stable...it has no effect on the fish. That's why adding the CC slowly and then just doing your weekly 25% pwc's will be important once we get it all balanced out.

As for the Betta Spa, I've heard from some VERY reputable sources that all those products that are claimed to specifically be for Bettas are useless...and they're basically just to get you to pick something else up to add to your cart when you're at the pet store. Prime helps restore their slime coat, so I'd save a few $'s and avoid it in the future. I'm not familiar with it, but Bruinsbro had a good point that if it in itself contributes to pH drops...it'll only compound the problem.

 

[MyameeGirl]

Consistency is ideal, and slowly raising it to the tap waters actual value (again, which you'll know after your glass of water and airstone test) is, in my opinion, the best action.

That said, I personally wouldn't be afraid to do water changes....in fact I'd do them often (possibly daily) until you can start adding the CC. I've heard some good arguments lately that it is not the actual pH changes that are dangerous...but is the things like GH (hardness) and kH (alkalinity) swings which cause damage. For example, some of the expert planted tank guys that run co2 setups for their plants have really big swings in pH during a 24 hour period, but since the GH and kH stay stable...it has no effect on the fish. That's why adding the CC slowly and then just doing your weekly 25% pwc's will be important once we get it all balanced out.

As for the Betta Spa, I've heard from some VERY reputable sources that all those products that are claimed to specifically be for Bettas are useless...and they're basically just to get you to pick something else up to add to your cart when you're at the pet store. Prime helps restore their slime coat, so I'd save a few $'s and avoid it in the future. I'm not familiar with it, but Bruinsbro had a good point that if it in itself contributes to pH drops...it'll only compound the problem.

Thanks, one last question...

Instead of CC, could I use cuttlebone, powdered, and sprinkled into the water? I'm not sure if it has the same properties and would acheive the same thing. If not, then I can get my hands on some of the CC.

I was using the cuttlebone for my snail, but have since stopped using it because I bought some high calcium veggie sticks for him instead. If it would be okay to use, then do you know how much I would use? I was using 1/8th of a teaspoon once a month, as per someone's instructions that use it for their snail with success.

Oh, and of course, if I can do daily PWC's I'll do that. About 20% daily, or more?

Thanks again.

 

[eco23]

Thanks, one last question...

Instead of CC, could I use cuttlebone, powdered, and sprinkled into the water? I'm not sure if it has the same properties and would acheive the same thing. If not, then I can get my hands on some of the CC.

I was using the cuttlebone for my snail, but have since stopped using it because I bought some high calcium veggie sticks for him instead. If it would be okay to use, then do you know how much I would use? I was using 1/8th of a teaspoon once a month, as per someone's instructions that use it for their snail with success.

Oh, and of course, if I can do daily PWC's I'll do that. About 20% daily, or more?

Thanks again.

I'd say 20% would be perfect.

I've never used cuttlebone, but as far as I know CC would do the same thing since it puts calcium into the water which helps your inverts as well (I think). Also, sprinkling the cuttlebone into the water would be different because it would be removed during pwc's as opposed to CC or aragonite which are a permanent fixture that don't need to be replaced until they totally dissolve...which takes a really long time to happen.

 

[jetajockey]

I wouldn't bother with the almond leaf extract, that's definitely what was lowering your pH level. I'd stop using it completely and then start testing the water again.

Testing the water straight out of the tap may not give you accurate readings, set a cup of water out overnight, aerate it, and then test it.

 

[MyameeGirl]

I'd say 20% would be perfect.

I've never used cuttlebone, but as far as I know CC would do the same thing since it puts calcium into the water which helps your inverts as well (I think). Also, sprinkling the cuttlebone into the water would be different because it would be removed during pwc's as opposed to CC or aragonite which are a permanent fixture that don't need to be replaced until they totally dissolve...which takes a really long time to happen.

Okay, thanks.

I think I got it.

I'll get out later today to get the CC and the mesh media or stocking, whichever.

I'll also do another partial water change and then check the water again.

All I wanted was a nice EASY tank for my betta...lol.

Think I'm gonna upgrade to a 20 to 30 gallon.. I hear they are easier to maintain!