Phosphate reduction 101

[Fubie]

I've searched the forums and read about phosphate reduction but I want to make sure I have it straight before I do anything major. My tank just had some major issues last week (See my thread Hazy, cloudy water issues in the "Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion" section of the forum) and now that I have it settled back down I want to start reducing my phosphate levels. I just received my phosphate test kit and tested immediately. Needless to say I thought, "WOW", as soon as the results pointed to 10ppm plus. Here are the rest of my readings:

10g planted
7.0-7.2 pH
0 ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrites
5 ppm nitrates
7º KH
10+ ppm phosphates (kit only reads to 10)
Hagen CO2 system
2.2 WPG fluorescent

Even after my initial 30% PWC last night it was still reading 10ppm plus. I did another 30% PWC this morning and it looks like the reading is now somewhere between 5-10ppm but I'm only guessing. I do not think I am over feeding but after testing my tap water and getting a 0 reading for phosphates it must be my feeding habits. Short of more water changes and reducing the amount I feed what else would you recommend for me to reduce the phosphate levels. I have a Emporer 280 bio-wheel so should I:

1) Add some of the Poly-Filter, ceramic, or other reducing material to absorb more phosphate?
2) Add liquid phosphate reducing chemical directly to the water?
3) Just continue with PWC and reduced feeding?

I'm guessing number 3 but you are the experts let me know please! Should I continue doing PWC more often? If so how much more? With added PWC should I not vacuum the gravel and reserve that for my weekly PWC? Also since I have ghost shrimp how much of a reduction in food should I do so that I can make sure they are getting food?

 

[greenmaji]

edit: next post..my bad!

 

[greenmaji]

Check and see if your filter is clean...
If you continue to do big water changes and correct the overfeeding if that is happening at all this should fix the problem...
Are you fertilizing the tank? A little too much ferts can become a phosphate issue as well...
have you read the new fertilizing sticky?
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=55457
a 10:1 ratio up to 15:1 is recomended for nitrateshosphates as well..
so if you can get your phosphates down to 1ppm you will need to dose nitrate to get it up to 10ppm.. check out the link above..
1ppm is the target level for planted tanks..

For everyone else reading with fish only tanks 0ppm is what is recomended...

 

[Fubie]

Thanks for the quick reply gm. I have cleaned my mechanical filter media several times in the last week. Monday to get that whitish, hazy slim off (from that abortive yeast CO2 incident you know about) and today to clean some plant matter off. I have been using Flourish to fert my plants. But as I read their website I now see there is an issue. The bottle recommends 1 capful (5ml) per 10 gallons. But the website has 1 capful per 60 gallons. If that is the case I've been dosing 6 times what I should have been. But according to their FAQ, "I believe if you check the amount of phosphorous content (< 0.01%) you'll see that at our recommended dosing this would only add 0.0005 mg/L (ppm) of phosphate to the water."
I retested about an hour ago and the phosphates were back up to or above 10 ppm. So I am at a loss right now. With my nitrates being low should I stop dosing fert to not add to the phosphate????

LOL, also I am down to 2.1WPG just after posting this thread my oldest daughter decided to help one of our ADF go back down in the water and dropped one side of the hood in the aquarium, which submerged one of my fluorescent lights and killed it. Damn the luck. I purchased a replacement but it is only 10W.

 

[greenmaji]

I would stop using the fert. untill you can get the phoshpates under controll..

 

[Fubie]

I'll do that. I'll let you know how it is going.

 

[Fubie]

Well I did another PWC this morning and a very good vac, but not deep, to get all the excess plant matter out of the gravel. I also cleaned the filters intake. The funny thing to me is how the phosphate levels either stay the same or climb back up after each of these PWC's. Here are my current results:

[Before PWC]
7.0-7.2 pH
0.25 ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrites
5 ppm nitrates
7º KH
5-10 ppm phosphates

[2 hours after PWC]:

7.0-7.2 pH
0 ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrites
5 ppm nitrates
7º KH
5-10 ppm phosphates

It is very hard to tell the blue color difference between 5 and 10 ppm on the phosphate test. But it is not as deep blue as when I first tested on Friday. I have not dosed Flourish in 3 days and I have completely changed the tanks water out with these 3 PWC's. Shouldn't I be seeing the levels testing quite a bit lower than what I am reading?

 

[greenmaji]

Why did you have a ammonia reading before the PWC?
If you have rooted plants I think your not suppose to vac the gravel.. are you useing any root tabs?
Even if your pwc %'s add up to 100 your not removing all of the origanal water, %'s dont exactly work that way..
Is there any buildup inside the intake tube for your filter?

 

[Fubie]

I'm not certain about the ammonia reading before todays PWC gm. When I tested last night it was 0 ppm, but I also did the test twice today to make sure if it was an anomaly. The start of a mini-cycle maybe? I hope not. I was reading around the planted section and I did read that no one really vacs the gravel, so I'll stop that. I am not using any root tabs and I have no build-up inside the intake. I have thoroughly cleaned it twice in the last week. The last time was yesterday morning. Each cleaning of it though didn't get much of anything out of it.

I just did my afternoon readings and came up with:

7.0-7.2 pH
0 ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrites
5 ppm nitrates
7º KH
8º GH
7.5 ppm phosphates (I'm going to start calling this 7.5 ppm since I can't tell for sure if it is at 5 ppm for sure. I know it isn't at 10 ppm though.)

 

[greenmaji]

Ive recently read on a very good website that the NO3:PO4 ballance should be 23:1 but 10:1 usually doesnt cause any problems.. I know that 23:1 whould be even more difficult to maintain than the 10:1; just thought I would pass along the information as Im learning it..
It doesnt seem to be a problem from your tank or equipment having any buildup so Ill ask how your feeding your fish.. do you feed very sparingly multiple times a day or once every day or two?

 

[Fubie]

Thanks for the info gm. I have a long ways to go before I can get to either. I'm working on it though.

I feed my fish sparingly, twice a day. I use tropical flakes, what they can eat in about 2 minutes. There isn't much left, but I do leave some to float to the bottom so my shrimp can have something to eat. I also feed them frozen brine shrimp once a week. Again just about what they can eat in 2 minutes. But over the last few days there isn't much food or excess plant matter on the gravel since I have vacuumed with each PWC. Since I was over dosing, according to the instructions with Flourish, could it be a build up in the gravel that is still releasing even after the PWC's and vacuuming?

 

[greenmaji]

Do you turn your filter off durring feeding, If not try to.. And I would try feeding them what they can eat in one minute..otherwise it sounds like your feedings are ok..
You should be able to keep it under controll with the PWC's and the lack of the overfertilizing.. if your feeding can be droped down like I just suggested it will help get it done as well..
HTH

 

[greenmaji]

I just noticed that your CO2 is down around 13ppm.. hope that is temperary.. Are your generators at full force yet? If they are you might want to consider a different mix next go around.. youll want to keep the CO2 up around 20-30ppm.. It will help with the algae problem as well.. Do you have a calculator? If not Cuck's calculator download for windows is at this link http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/download/aquacalc_setup.exe
Happy to Help..
Hope this isnt redundunt advise.. :?

 

[Fubie]

I'll cut the feedings down accordingly gm. I was wondering about my systems CO2 output myself so I'll alter the yeast and sugar amounts in my next batch. I do not have that CO2 calculator. But you, or possibly TankGirl, gave me Chuck's online CO2 calculator page. Hmmm, I like it. A stand alone executable. Great!!! Thanks gm!

This mornings readings:

7.0-7.2 pH
0 ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrites
5 ppm nitrates
7º KH
7.5 ppm phosphates...

 

[greenmaji]

Good Luck!

 

[Zezmo]

This is not a solution for the long tern, but it may help you get things under control to use a product like Phos-X. It's a bag, that sits in your filter and absorbs Phosphate.

I get about 4 weeks plus out of my Co2. I use 4 2-liter bottles, and replace 2 of them every 2 weeks. Inside each is... 1/2 packet yeast, 1tsp Baking Soda, 1 Scoop of Chocolate Muscle Blast (protein drink), 1 tblsp of Molasses, 2 cups sugar, and I fill it until about 3 inches from the top with water. The water should be tepid, neither warm nor cold.

It's important to let your mixture sit open overnight, this lets the yeast get going before you close the bottles.

<<for the record that not my original formula, but a mixture of ideas I got from other peoples sites>>

 

[greenmaji]

Zizmo.. what is your water like that your using for the mix.. your tap peramiters.. such as PH and KH?
yea.. a PO4 reduction media could help short term.. I would personaly think this could be controlled quite quickly if you took the correct precautions though.. If your still having a really hard time getting a PO4 media might be a way to go..

 

[Fubie]

This is not a solution for the long tern, but it may help you get things under control to use a product like Phos-X. It's a bag, that sits in your filter and absorbs Phosphate.

I get about 4 weeks plus out of my Co2. I use 4 2-liter bottles, and replace 2 of them every 2 weeks. Inside each is... 1/2 packet yeast, 1tsp Baking Soda, 1 Scoop of Chocolate Muscle Blast (protein drink), 1 tblsp of Molasses, 2 cups sugar, and I fill it until about 3 inches from the top with water. The water should be tepid, neither warm nor cold.

It's important to let your mixture sit open overnight, this lets the yeast get going before you close the bottles.

<<for the record that not my original formula, but a mixture of ideas I got from other peoples sites>>

I've thought about the PO4 reduction material myself. Before I give it a try though I want to give the PWC's a chance and see if reducing the amount per and number of feedings helps.

That has to be the most complicated CO2 production mixture I have read about yet. I might just give that a try. I am using the formula for the Hagen given in these forums, Hagen CO2 Natural Plant System Recipe.

 

[Zezmo]

I will have to test my water when I get home. I will let you know. I don't really use my tap water in my tanks, so I don't know what it is off hand.

On a side note, I sometimes have a hard time seeing whether my mix is still producing bubbles. I use a bubble counter, that tells me how the whole system is perfomring. But on an individual bottle, I have found that by shining a keychain laser at the bottle, I can see how well that bottle is producing.

And, Yes, I completely agree... fix the source of the problem, a stopgap like Phos-X is a short term solution.

 

[Fubie]

Just an update on my readings for those following this thread. I did another PWC (about 30% my average so far) today, but I haven't been doing them as aggressively as I had last weekend. My phosphates seem to be slowly coming down. Here are my readings this morning:

7.0 pH
0 ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrites
0 ppm nitrates
6º KH
5 ppm phosphates
CO2 18ppm

I think I've discovered the secret to using the Hagen CO2 ladder effectively. I had been putting it fully submerged and not getting very good CO2 diffusion. I thought this was because of my Emporer 280. But last night I decided to place the top of the ladder at the waters surface level to get it to hold the bubbles in the water longer before they burst. Well it seems to have worked. Last nights readings where:

7.2 pH
0 ppm ammonia
0 ppm nitrites
5 ppm nitrates
6º KH
7.5 ppm phosphates

So I'm guessing that my fiddling with the ladder depth/location allowed much better CO2 diffusion. Now the plants must be going nuts using the nitrates because it has dropped to 0 ppm again.

Woo Hoo. I think I'm starting to win this battle.