Plant dying?

[Taelen]

Well, I finished setting up my 44g last week and went out and purchased two java ferns and a stem plant that the LFS told me was very hardy. Today is day 6 and I do believe that the stem plant is dying off rather rapidly...almost disintegrating. I followed everything for a fishless cycle and added the plants at the start hoping they would help speed things along. The second pic is the day I bought the plants...the first is today. The plant basicially is wilted over, lifeless getting sucked into the powerhead of my AC70, I tried to move it away and pieces literally started to fall off. So I spent the morning cleaning up plant debris.

A few bits of information, I have been turning off the lights while away at work and leaving it on the rest of the time to try and avoid algae. I dosed the tank with Flourish, Excel and Iron (Seachem kit) as per the instructions. All water parameters are as expected at this stage, around 3-4ppm ammonia, pH 7, NO2 0ppm and NO3 0 ppm. I also tested the hardness and that might be a bit high, around 54ppm KH or so.

This is a tank that was pretty scummy and had a lot of deposits when got it from a friend, I did a lot to clean it with several products, but it was rinsed many, many times before I started this last weekend. The only thing I can think of as to why that plant is dying is perhaps there are still residual chemicals on the surface of the tank that are now in the water? Although as of right now, the java ferns look pretty much the same as when I got them.

 

[Zezmo]

The stem plant looks like Anacharis, try floating that intstead of putting it in the substrate. I also note you used Flourish Excel, that will cause Anacharis to disintigrate.

The Jave fern will also die if left in the substrate. Try using some black cotton thread (or even a rubber band) to tie it to that nice piece of driftwood, it will thrive then.

 

[Purrbox]

I second the Flourish and Anacharis conclusion.

 

[Taelen]

Thanks guys,

A couple of questions:

What is in the Flourish that would do that, especially if meant to treat plants? Should I stop using it altogether or is it just harmful to Anacharis? If I discontinue using it, will a large PWC take care of anything left over?

And as for the substrate...tahitian moon sand. I realize these particular plants can grow floating freely, but I didn't know that having them in the substrate would be harmful.

What other low-light, low CO2 options do I have? Maybe something that would do well planted in the substrate?

 

[newfound77951]

There are a few plants with known aversions to Excel, Anacharis and Vals being the two that come to mind. I'm not sure what it is in the Excel that they don't like, but the vast majority of plants are fine with it. It breaks down in the water pretty quickly, so doing a large PWC wouldn't do much, but like any tank problem, a PWC is never a bad thing to do.

Java fern does not like to have its roots and rhizome under any substrate. You can attach it to your driftwood or a rock. As far as other plants to try, Anubias would work (they also don't like to be in the substrate). Kind of need to know how much light and what type in order to give you more solid plant advice. If you've got over 1 watt per gallon, Java fern, Anubias and most Cryptocoryne sp would do fine, although the Crypts would need some root tabs to supplement the moon sand.

 

[Taelen]

Are the plants going to get what they need if I don't supplement the Flourish? And there are 3 products I used, the iron supplement, Excel and Flourish.

As far as the lighting, it's a 44g tank and has two fixtures on top with 18" bulbs in each. It's just the standard bulbs that came with the lights right now, but I can always swap in some more specialized lights.

 

[newfound77951]

18" bulbs are only 20 watts, I think...so you have 40 watts or about 1 wpg, which is barely enough for some very low light tolerant plants like Java fern and Anubias. At that light level, I'm not sure that you even need to add Excel, Flourish and iron, the plants are going to take up nutrients so slowly that any dosing that you do will most likely get used by algae rather than the plants. If down the road you see signs of a deficiency of some sort then that would be the time to start thinking about dosing.

Also, you can't just change out the bulbs in the fixture you have and have it make much of a difference. The type of bulb is far less important than plain old watts. The plants that you have will probably be OK in 1 wpg, but if you wanted more plant options, you really need to boost your wpg to 1.5 or 2 (or more). Keeping the wpg under 2 generally negates the need for CO2 (or Excel) supplementation. Once you figure out what you want to do with the tank, keep asking questions and we'll get it sorted out for you. Unfortunately almost none of the stock lights that come with most tanks are sufficient to grow anything but the lowest light plants.

 

[7Enigma]

What kind of tank is that. It looks to me to be a unique shape and much taller than wide. This is bad for light levels since it takes more light to get down to the substrate where the plants are growing. I agree that you can put away the chemicals at that light level. They just won't grow fast enough to deplete your nutrients once you get fish in there and start feeding. During your cycle though I would maybe once a week add in the flourish products (NOT EXCEL if you are keeping the anacharis and I highly recommend you do).

For me the easiest way to attach the java ferns to the substrate was to use small rocks to hold down the black anchor roots. This will keep the plant stationary while allowing the rhizome to stay above the surface. Anubias is a great choice for your tank since it is a slow grower, very tough, and like the java fern will anchor itself into the substrate with a little time. I'd go buy another bundle of anacharis and spread it around the tank. It will be coated with bacteria from the LFS which will help to speed up your cycle a bit, and should grow nicely in your tank even with the low light level.

And I seem to remember reading that Excel's affect on anacharis and vals is due to the stoma on the plants being effected (ie not properly opening/closing for gas transfer).

 

[Taelen]

It is a taller corner tank.

Yesterday I removed the remnants of the anacharis (poor bugger) which pretty much had melted into a pile of green goo. Disturbing how fast it died.

I also took the Java ferns out of the substrate and tied one to the driftwood and one to the rock using some black thread. They look kinda silly just hanging there but hopefully it's in time to save them. There are some browning leaves on the java ferns however. I also did a 50% pwc. As of yesterday, there are no nitrites and the ammonia has stayed relatively constant, no doubt because of the decaying plant material.

Should I get some stronger lighting or just leave the stock lights? I'm personally happy with java fern, anacharis and anubias. I'll get some more anacharis hopefully this week. Plantgeek says it can be floated or planted, and I do like the way it grows up from the substrate at the back of the tank.

Thanks guys.

 

[black hills tj]

It is a taller corner tank.

Yesterday I removed the remnants of the anacharis (poor bugger) which pretty much had melted into a pile of green goo. Disturbing how fast it died.

I also took the Java ferns out of the substrate and tied one to the driftwood and one to the rock using some black thread. They look kinda silly just hanging there but hopefully it's in time to save them. There are some browning leaves on the java ferns however. I also did a 50% pwc. As of yesterday, there are no nitrites and the ammonia has stayed relatively constant, no doubt because of the decaying plant material.

Should I get some stronger lighting or just leave the stock lights? I'm personally happy with java fern, anacharis and anubias. I'll get some more anacharis hopefully this week. Plantgeek says it can be floated or planted, and I do like the way it grows up from the substrate at the back of the tank.

Thanks guys.

Depending on how much you can get anacharis for locally, I can send you some for the price of shipping.

 

[Taelen]

Thanks Black, I may take you up on that. I'll have to double check the price I paid at the LFS.

Tonight I picked up several anubias barteri and proceeded to tie them to my driftwood. I have to say this was an exercise in frustration, not sure what everyone else does but I tried several methods, tying the thread to the plant outside the tank, removing some water so I could get my hands in there to try and tie the thread. It was tough.

The tank also had about 0.25ppm nitrite tonight as well, so it looks like things are getting started as far as my cycle goes.

Additionally, the LFS was quite shocked to discover what had happened to my anacharis and they couldn't imagine why the Flourish Excel would do that. Regardless, I told them to research it themselves so they could stop telling people to dose with it, especially low light, low CO2 set-ups.

 

[Purrbox]

I find that it works best to tie plants to driftwood or rocks outside of the aquarium. If there are lots of long roots, I trim them back to between 2-4" long. This will stimulate new growth and help them to attach faster, plus it also makes them easier to tie on. This is also a good time to trim off any damaged leaves. Work the plant snuggly against the driftwood or rock, gently bending the roots as necessary to get it in the proper position. Then take a long piece of thread and wrap it around and around and around. The idea is to get the plant held snug against the object without damaging it. Tie of the thread and then use more if necessary.