Problem after problem - guppies

[Kwakatoo]

In the thread stickies you ask for details.. Here goes

I have 2 female guppies (likely pregnant), 1 male guppy and two male endlers. A 30lt tank (8g)

Prior to the guppies being put in this tank, I had sick fish. I took them to the shop and they couldn't see anything clear. Assumption made it was fun rot, as whitish substance and clamped fins. So treated for fin Roy - all fish in tank died - I had them for 4 days. And no water quality issues. The day before I noticed illness, I measured ph 7.0, ammonia 0.0, nitrite 0.0, nitrate 0.5-0.9. All fish died in that tank. So I cleaned it thoroughly (I thought) with vinegar solution.

I cycled the tank a few weeks before I put guppies in from another tank in the house - much longer establish tank, no issues.

I was still cycling the tank when I added the 2 female pregnant guppies as they had been harassed by males. This was 25 June - by the 15/7 the cycle was looking good and tested Ammonia: 0.1, Nitrite: 0.0, Nitrate 5 daily. The females had fry and the males and females put in the tank - fry removed.

24/7 I gave the filter a slight clean by shaking debris out in siphoned tank water. Returned it to tank. Nitrates slightly elevated at 20, so did 40% water change. Noticed one female flashing against filter..

25/7 decide the white tackiness on fins was not fin rot - as I felt had been incorrectly diagnosed before, but velvet. So dose tank up to 1.5 - 2 tablespoons salt (Rock, non iodized) per gallon over next day. Increase temp from 25 to 30C (86F) degrees.

27/7 remove carbon from small in tank filter. Protozin from Waterlife meds administered in half doses 2ce a day. Fish obviously stressed
28/7 check water parameters shocked to see very high nitrite at 1.0(?)and ammonia at 0.5, nitrate ok at 5.0. So water change at 20%
29/7 20% pwc - replace salt % and protozin in water removed every pwc
30/7 50% pwc. Plus dose protozin on day 4 - mistake means I've overdosed.
31/7 50% pwc - only replace salt removed
1/8 50% pwc - do not replace salt... Because..

Females very bloated!
Is this salt now or internal parasites?
The females have also shown white stringy poo shoot while bloated. The orange female seems s but better than yesterday, but the female pictured has scales starting to flex out.

Best guess... Overdosed protozin and their pregnant bellies are producing lots of gas because of dead fry? Or more prone to toxicity if meds as I went too far in dosing. Or salt has finally affected them.. Or internal paradise???

Ideas ?? I'm feeling like a hopeless fish keeper..


8~Have you added anything new to the tank--
Yes - plants from a small local supplier. Both times fish got sick. Plants from same tank each time (no I will not buy from there again)


9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently?
Flakes mostly, and frozen shrimp brine. The shrimp brine was a new food while the females were pregnant. Seems ok.

 

[Kwakatoo]

 

[Kwakatoo]

Btw, I'm assuming dropsy, and my guppies are just succumbing to a week load of stress, changing water conditions/extremes and a parasite . Could my reducing salt now exacerbate or help - given they've been in a high level of salt for days now?


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[Kwakatoo]

My poor two fat ladies died. very sad. The remaining fish in the tank, all male, seem OK.


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[Caliban07]

'Pine coning' as is described when the fishes fins stick out occurs when the fishes osmoregulatory system has been compromised. The kidneys work hard to control the fluid buildup inside the fish by expelling water. But when this system is overwhelmed the fluid builds up inside the body and the fins stick out.

In fresh water fish water is constantly entering their bodies due to osmosis. The solute concentration inside the fish is greater than the surrounding water and so water enters the fish to try and equalise the solute concentration and so the fish needs to expel large quantities of water. As a result the fish loses necessary salts that have to be replaced via their gills.

In our aquariums (and sometimes in the wild) the water solute concentration is always changing and so the fish is always adapting. Larger fluctuations in water chemistry can overwhelm the osmoregulatory systems and can cause damage to the cells within the fish. It doesn't matter if the solute concentration changes to have a negative or positive affect on the osmotic pressure. The cells fish still uses energy to adjust to the change.

A stressed or diseased fish can already be struggling with this process. The kidneys are a very important organ within a fish and damage to this organ often result in death. Adding salt slows the process down and the fish can look normal a few hours later but it is often only temporary.

It's hard to say why your fish died. Probably a combination of things.


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[Arthur75]

First: do not lose the joy.
Many fish diseases caused by unsuitable conditions. But everyone can do something.
Some are also introduced by the store (infected.) You can not do anything, except look carefully when buying.
Some are also introduced with live food. you can let wait the feed before 1 or 2 days.
Guppies are not complicated, but they are sensitive to water changes, especially if it is acidic. Then the fish swing.
Beginners should take larger tanks, the water chemis more stable.

 

[Caliban07]

First: do not lose the joy.
Many fish diseases caused by unsuitable conditions. But everyone can do something.
Some are also introduced by the store (infected.) You can not do anything, except look carefully when buying.
Some are also introduced with live food. you can let wait the feed before 1 or 2 days.
Guppies are not complicated, but they are sensitive to water changes, especially if it is acidic. Then the fish swing.
Beginners should take larger tanks, the water chemis more stable.

+1 nice post.

I had a torrid time when I started back up in the hobby. The worst thing about this hobby is that, in the beginning you seem to do more harm thinking you are doing the right thing. This happened to me so many times.

Don't give up.


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[Kwakatoo]

Thanks everyone. I'm a bit fascinated by fish now that I have them. I think they are fabulous creatures, and I was sad I lost the two fat ladies, and it's my fault. My hubbie of course thinks I spend too much time "on the fish". But I'm a stubborn person, I'll be sticking at it!

Tonight I measured the water, and nitrite was v high again, so have done a 50% water change, and it looks better, 0.25. Replaced the salt, and kept the guppie in a breeding tray as he was getting his fins nipped at by the two endlers. He's not eating, so I know he's not doing ok as he normally loves his food. I have the lights off and aeration up, temp at 86F/30C. If he can get through the next 24 hours, we might be ok!

In the meantime, he's a pic of the one and only fry that I found and have kept in another tank.. A baby of one of the two fat ladies..



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[Arthur75]

What kind of yellow stones in the picture?
Multicolored stones are sometimes toxic. Metal compounds.

 

[Kwakatoo]

What kind of yellow stones in the picture?
Multicolored stones are sometimes toxic. Metal compounds.

I bought that decoration for the lfs, it is a painted plastic thing. Shouldn't be toxic, and I've had it almost a year without issues in that tank. But thank you for mentioning it - you never know!


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[Carriwin]

Kwakatoo, Glad to see you're sticking with it. My hobby has expanded to 4 running tanks when I only wanted two... (Craigslist is bad, mmkay?) I'm grateful though, as I love all my little fish babies. I'm sorry to hear about yours. I hope things improve and your guppy haven becomes what you want it to be very soon.

 

[Caliban07]

Thanks everyone. I'm a bit fascinated by fish now that I have them. I think they are fabulous creatures, and I was sad I lost the two fat ladies, and it's my fault. My hubbie of course thinks I spend too much time "on the fish". But I'm a stubborn person, I'll be sticking at it!

Tonight I measured the water, and nitrite was v high again, so have done a 50% water change, and it looks better, 0.25. Replaced the salt, and kept the guppie in a breeding tray as he was getting his fins nipped at by the two endlers. He's not eating, so I know he's not doing ok as he normally loves his food. I have the lights off and aeration up, temp at 86F/30C. If he can get through the next 24 hours, we might be ok!

In the meantime, he's a pic of the one and only fry that I found and have kept in another tank.. A baby of one of the two fat ladies..
View attachment 288393


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Any particular reason the temp is up at 30?


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[Kwakatoo]

(Craigslist is bad, mmkay?) I'm grateful though, as I love all my little fish babies. I'm sorry to hear about yours. I hope things improve and your guppy haven becomes what you want it to be very soon.

Thank you!! Yes, I keep looking at tanks being sold. Biding my time though as I need to get the ones I've got right first!

 

[Kwakatoo]

Any particular reason the temp is up at 30?

Hi Caliban, yep - normally I'd have the tank at 25C but in the last week I've been dealing with a parasite in the tank, thus salt and temp changes. Hoping to bring it down in next to day or two, as soon as my last remaining adult guppie is cured!

 

[Kwakatoo]

Mr Guppy is hanging in there.. Just.. I'm not confident.
I'm doing nightly 50% water changes, to keep nitrite down, but tonight added the active carbon back into the filter. Hopefully the salted water is all this guy needs to get better. Stupid meds. Here's a pic of the poor fella. There was a very slight, almost spider web string like trail off him tonight, it's a sticky white stuff ... Not sure if it's still a velvet issue or has become a slime coat production issue. But it looks the same... I think.
But see how the side fins are white-ish, they should be clearer. The camera doesn't show the tackiness of it. Fingers crossed.




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[Matt68005]

Im not sure what to say, maybe several things going on, maybe worms, or interal bacteria like fish tuberlosis.
Generally speaking, guppies like hard, warm water, and not alot of water movement.
I suggest to add more fake plants, or even live plants with sand substrate would be ideal. Plants make them feel comfortable.
Sounds like your worried about nitrates too much. Its okay to let nitrates rise to 40. You are changing the water TOO much. They like natural old aquariums (you mentioned the ones in the older tank are fine) and you could quite possible be overfeeding.
Try looking into getting better stock, and maybe starting over, stearlize everything with bleach, and setup a "natural" looking tank. (save the filter pad, and stop washing it off until its completely clogged) They just seem to do better in established big peaceful tanks.
A tank with driftwood, leaves (you could just collect tree leaves, or use Almond leaves) live plants, it all contributes to the fish feeling comfortable and being in their natural environment, and the less stress, the less the oppurtunistic microbes and parasites that are always in tank will attack them and get past their natural immune system.
(plus your in AUS and i have no idea what med to reccomend, try doing the hobby without meds, it can be done.)
I wish you good luck, and im glad your excited about guppies, i have been since i was a kid.
PS. As far as salt goes, its generally not necessary and ineffective at low doses. What you need to do is go get real sea salt, and setup a bare bottom ten gallon tank for your fry. Get it cycled, and use the sea salt to make the tank brackish, or at least 1/3 the strength of sea water. Guppy farms mix sea water in with their guppy fry because sodium cloride naturally wards off microbes, bacteria, fungi and parasites. Camallanus worms cannot live in brackish water, nor can most other freshwater parasites. Try it! Its not hard, nor expensive, and its fun. Just make sure to let the salt dissolve by agitating it for at least 30 minutes before adding it to the tank, every time. (it can burn their eyes or gills, but once its dissolved, guppies do very well in it, they can even be kept in salt water tanks, just like mollies.)
Also PS, no salt with live plants, should you choose to try this someday.

 

[Kwakatoo]

Try looking into getting better stock, and maybe starting over, stearlize everything with bleach, and setup a "natural" looking tank. (save the filter pad, and stop washing it off until its completely clogged) They just seem to do better in established big peaceful tanks. ..
....
I wish you good luck, and im glad your excited about guppies, i have been since i was a kid.
PS. As far as salt goes, its generally not necessary and ineffective at low doses. What you need to do is go get real sea salt, and setup a bare bottom ten gallon tank for your fry. Get it cycled, and use the sea salt to make the tank brackish, or at least 1/3 the strength of sea water. Guppy farms mix sea water in with their guppy fry because sodium cloride naturally wards off microbes, bacteria, fungi and parasites. Camallanus worms cannot live in brackish water, nor can most other freshwater parasites. Try it! Its not hard, nor expensive, and its fun. Just make sure to let the salt dissolve by agitating it for at least 30 minutes before adding it to the tank, every time. (it can burn their eyes or gills, but once its dissolved, guppies do very well in it, they can even be kept in salt water tanks, just like mollies.)
Also PS, no salt with live plants, should you choose to try this someday.

Hi Matt, thanks for your reply. I really appreciate the help. I think a cascade of things happened, starting with a stressed out momma fish who may have gotten a bacterial infection, then could that have turned into parasites.. Then .. Treating everything caused my tank to bomb.. Then, more stressed fish, ending in bloat... I euthanised two of the last three today. I have one Endler left.

I get that I'm doing too many water change, but I'm totally stuck with high nitrites (not nitrate) if I don't.. What can I do? Can only assume the high salt levels killed some of my bacteria, and the removal of some filter carbon also didn't help. But I've never seen nitrite so high. I assume that's why the fish are now getting bloated. High nitrite is much more toxic to fish than nitrate.

I do think I was feeding too much, the girls were looking pregnant and seemed voraciously eating, so I kept adding a few extra little feeds.

The salt thing.. Hmm. I was trying this. I added 1.5 Aussie tablespoons, which is close to 2 American tablespoons of salt per gallon.. To get rid of parasites. But I also added meds, and removed the carbon bag out of the in-tank filter, so I'm not sure what has impacted my tank biology the most?

So I'll wait and see what happens to this last fella, I'm scared to put him in with my one and only fry, who is growing great - for fear of spreading any sickness. But, I'm sad to admit, this is the second time this has happened in my tank.. All fish die when I've been careful to keep an eye on water Etc. Maybe I should cleanse tank, then fish less cycle for awhile? Thoughts?

Ps, just because I was sad euthanising, I took a picture to make me remember why they needed to die quickly and not prolonged.. See how he had deteriorating fins too. I think lots of things were happening.



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[Caliban07]

Hi Matt, thanks for your reply. I really appreciate the help. I think a cascade of things happened, starting with a stressed out momma fish who may have gotten a bacterial infection, then could that have turned into parasites.. Then .. Treating everything caused my tank to bomb.. Then, more stressed fish, ending in bloat... I euthanised two of the last three today. I have one Endler left.

I get that I'm doing too many water change, but I'm totally stuck with high nitrites (not nitrate) if I don't.. What can I do? Can only assume the high salt levels killed some of my bacteria, and the removal of some filter carbon also didn't help. But I've never seen nitrite so high. I assume that's why the fish are now getting bloated. High nitrite is much more toxic to fish than nitrate.

I do think I was feeding too much, the girls were looking pregnant and seemed voraciously eating, so I kept adding a few extra little feeds.

The salt thing.. Hmm. I was trying this. I added 1.5 Aussie tablespoons, which is close to 2 American tablespoons of salt per gallon.. To get rid of parasites. But I also added meds, and removed the carbon bag out of the in-tank filter, so I'm not sure what has impacted my tank biology the most?

So I'll wait and see what happens to this last fella, I'm scared to put him in with my one and only fry, who is growing great - for fear of spreading any sickness. But, I'm sad to admit, this is the second time this has happened in my tank.. All fish die when I've been careful to keep an eye on water Etc. Maybe I should cleanse tank, then fish less cycle for awhile? Thoughts?

Ps, just because I was sad euthanising, I took a picture to make me remember why they needed to die quickly and not prolonged.. See how he had deteriorating fins too. I think lots of things were happening.
View attachment 288505


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Hi kwakatoo

Unfortunately, this can be fish keeping. Especially when you are new. Anyone who sad that they haven't been through this kind of thing is lying. When we do things with good intent things often get worse.

High nitrite has nothing to do with the bloat because the symptom of nitrite toxicity is gasping at the surface. If you haven't observed this then the fish are probably unaffected by the nitrite levels despite what your test kit is telling you.

Adding salt (assuming there was chloride present i.e. sodium chloride) reduces the toxic effect of nitrite so by adding salt to combat parasites you added a safety net against nitrite. In most cases nitrite probably kills few fish in this hobby. More likely the preceding ammonia.

Changing water is good for your fish. Especially when there is high nitrate.

I have changed my tune ten fold on water changes since my days running a Walstad tank but it is all relative. Depends on the waste production/pollution of the tank in question.

Mollies/Guppies are one of the more popular aquarium fish and are mass bred. This can't lead to health issues over time for more reason than one. All about turning a fast buck and they are shipped in less than ideal conditions. By the time the fish end up in your aquarium they have probably been exposed to some unfavourable water conditions and will have had to acclimate a few times. This is why people have quarantine tanks and can be so meticulous about where they get their fish from. You do what you can. Try again.

Live plants, clean water, good flow, good filtration, regular routine, good food.

I have killed my fair share of fish, snails and shrimp to get where I am currently. Still so much to learn.

Good luck ?


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[Matt68005]

No i would just go get some more, unless you observed any symptoms pertaining to either:
neon tetra disease
Fish Tuberlosis
Camallanus worms

I think your guppies simply had bacterial infection known as columnaris.
I dont think you need to redo the tank, but give those 3 things a quick google and look at the pictures, if you did not notice anything like that, it should be fine to re-add fish right away.
Most bacteria are present in all declorinated water, lakes ponds fishtanks included. It has to be up to the fish to fight it off. The ammonia likely stressed them out and then anything can set in.
If the tank is cycled now, keep it!
Also keep a 1:3 male to female ratio and plenty of hiding places (you can float fake plants or get more) as males will harass the females to the point of stress and then they get sick.
Its amazing what ammonia can do to damage a fish. And they never seem to recover.

 

[Arthur75]

I'm very sorry that you have such difficulties again.
I have often tried in vain to have beautiful large guppies with veil tails.
But it is important that there is a healthy root. Otherwise it is nothing.
Patience is important.
We must not go to the big stores. There are all Guppies imports. Wonderful pool with males uniform color. And buy some females do so. Not the right thing.
It is intended that the fish look nice. Not that the customer breeds after.
For several years I observe in the smaller shops in the mountains, which have for guppies.
You can not take all. Each breeding guppies, but sometimes not optimal.
I look for from a particularly large and thick females. Some color in the tail fin.
The birth usually brings about 100 pieces. In healthy rearing I sometimes had luck. It takes a long time until I can see how the males. Patience.

Start new!
make all empty, make dry.
Fill New water and add a little water from a well running Aquarium added, or some gravel. Or a piece of filter sponge.
After a few days they have then the healthy microbial environment.
If you have used only few fish, you need to change only a little water and the fish enjoy the silence.
No fuss, no medication.