Questions About Ich (I *Have* Read the FAQ)

[Twoapennything]

1. I'm pretty sure my black velvet Molly has Ich (pictures at the end of the post) - he has white spots over his head and belly, and the scales look fuzzy, as if they've been brushed the opposite way than they normally lay. Guy was doing a lot of lurking and darting around the tank frantically. I did not see him trying to rub himself on rocks or decor.

2. Today's tank parameters are: Ammonia .125; NitrIte .125, NitrAte 0-5, pH 7.8 (note: I have done two Ich treatments in the past six days, using API's Super Ick Cure).

3-4. I have a 37 gallon Marineland tank with a built in hood and filter. The tank has been set up since January 15, 2010. The filtration system is Marineland biowheel and, as I said, is just built into the tank set. I do know that it says it can process up to 250 gallons of water per hour (could this really be true? That's a lot of water).

5. I have two mollies (small); one fancy goldfish (medium); one betta fish (small); seven neon tetras (tiny); two cherry barbs (tiny); two powder blue gouramis (small); one balloon belly molly (tiny), two guppies (tiny); two sunset wag platies (small); one angelfish (small); and two African dwarf frogs (tiny) in my tank.

Tiny = less than 1 inch
Small = 1 - 2 inches, approximately
Medium = 2 - 4 inches
Large - 4+ inches

Total: 23 fish I am maxed out on my bioload, IMO. I'm not planning to add any more fish to this tank.

6. This tank, I think, is still cycling. I do a water change whenever the ammonia and nitrite levels go up; this would be between 2-4x per week. I vacuum the gravel every time I do a water change. I remove between 30% and 75% of the tank's water, depending on the ammonia and nitrite levels. The higher the levels, the more water I remove.

7. I have had Guy Noir for well over six months; this is the first illness he has shown.

8. The only new addition to the tank is our betta fish, Hemlock. He has been with us for 10 days. and doesn't show any signs of Ich. Nothing else is new - no new chemicals, no new decor, no new food, etc.

9. I have not changed the fishes' diet - I work really hard to keep their diet stable and the fish on a fixed eating schedule. In the morning I feed NutraFin Max livebearer flakes and one very small pinch of Top Fin small freeze dried medley (daphnia, mysis shrimp, and bloodworms). In the evening I feed NutraFin Max livebearer flakes and NutraFin Max tropical fish flakes. About every two days I also feed in the morning ReptoTreat, which is whole bloodworms in a "nutrient rich gel," mainly for my African frogs. I also feed them fresh peas (frozen/dethawed, and shelled, technically) and sometimes a piece of lettuce. I am careful not to overfeed the fish.

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Okay, so Guy has Ich, I'm pretty sure. I have treated the tank twice with the API Super Ick Cure, every 48 hours, per the directions on the box. Guy's looking better, but the white spots are not completely gone. The FAQ indicated that sometimes daily treatment is necessary. I have a product on hand called Jungle Parasite Clear - Tank Buddies, which is a multi-parasite treatment, apparently. Should I use this? Or should I go to PetSmart and buy the Super Ick Cure again and just stick to that? What about aquarium salt - is it a good choice to try?

Apparently Ich can be killed more quickly when the water is warmer. I have slowly been raising the temperature in the tank to 80+, but I'm worried about my fancy goldfish - I usually keep the temp around 78-80 degrees, so it's not like Lady isn't used to warmer water. But higher than 80? Would it kill my goldfish?

Any and all advice is appreciated. Here's some pics of Guy:

 

[Zagz]

That is ich. The first thing is the goldfish should not be kept with warmer water fish. If possible create a temporary tank for the goldfish and treat the main tank with the heat method only. First do a water change on the main tank of 50% to control the ammonia and nitrite.

Then slowly raise the temp to 86 F and keep it there for 2 weeks after the last spot of ich is gone. Add aeration or lower the water level a bit.

To create a temp tank for the goldfish, you can use any rubbermaid container that is clean, add a filter and if need be a heater.

 

[Twoapennything]

That is ich. The first thing is the goldfish should not be kept with warmer water fish.

Well, yes, I know that now. Unfortunately I didn't know that goldfish are cooler water fish until I started learning how to really care for my tank and my fish. So far, so good, but it's obviously a problem in a situation like this when I need to really raise the temp of the tank.

I will try the heat method you suggest.

If possible create a temporary tank for the goldfish

I was thinking of getting one of those small 5 gallon aquariums and using it as an extra tank for situations like this, and as a quarantine tank. They're not very expensive, and I could get a small heater for it.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Zagz]

Yes a 5 gal can be a fantastic emergency tank. I was just offering you an emergency QT tank option. Good luck and keep us updated on how the fish are doing.

 

[dkpate]

On a side note, I wouldn't let the betta have any of that freeze-dried stuff. They bloat really easily on them.

 

[Twoapennything]

On a side note, I wouldn't let the betta have any of that freeze-dried stuff. They bloat really easily on them.

Thanks for letting me know - I hadn't known this before. Do they react the same way to fresh or frozen worms?

 

[jsoong]

I was thinking of getting one of those small 5 gallon aquariums and using it as an extra tank for situations like this, and as a quarantine tank. They're not very expensive, and I could get a small heater for it.

A 5 is too small for a 2-4" goldfish, even as an emergency QT. That heat treatment is going to take several weeks. To keep your goldfish alive, you will need to be doing daily or even twice daily water changes in a 5 gal!

You are better off getting a 10 or 20 gal clear rubbermaid tub. When not in use, you can use that to store all your fish stuff.

BTW - when you are doing the heat treatment of your main tank, you should be doing a salt treatment for the goldfish. I would treat the goldfish even if there is no spots, since the main tank is infected.

 

[Zagz]

While I certainly agree with jsoong on the size of a QT tank for goldfish, let me say if it is the only option it is better IMO than leaving the goldies in with the tropicals for the heat treatment.

You might want to check your local craigslist to see if anyone is getting rid of a 20-30 gal tank cheap. That could be a fast and easy option.

 

[dkpate]

Frozen and fresh are fine. They are not all full of air like the freeze-dried ones, and they stay the same size after ingestion. No worries!

 

[mfdrookie516]

walmart sells 10g tanks for $12... i think that would be big enough, and its cheap.

 

[dkpate]

Not my Walmart. $30.

 

[Aquarium1]

About the filtration. 250 gph isn't very much on a 37g. You want to try to acheive 10x the flow although it is fine for now and probably shouldn't be youR top priority right now. Check cl and walmart for tanks for that Goldie if you can. Good luck

 

[Twoapennything]

Thanks everyone for the great advice. I'll go with the 10 gallon tank - Lady lived in a 10 gallon for four months before I got the 40 gallon tank, so I think he could stand a few weeks in a 10 gallon again.

Regarding salt - just a carton of salt that they sell at PetSmart? The kind that looks like it comes in a milk carton?

 

[dkpate]

That's aquarium salt, yes. They also sell it at Walmart, which might be cheaper.

 

[jsoong]

This is a good writeup on using salt to treat ich:
Treating Ich with Salt | Illness and Treatment

 

[Twoapennything]

jsoong, thanks for the link to the article on treating Ich with salt - I read it and just might give it a try - I bought a small carton of aquarium salt last night. I just started treating the tank with Rid Ich, though (previously I had used API Super Ick Cure). Can I use salt as well as the Rid Ich? I don't want to stress the fish or put too many chemicals into the tank.

All the Ich advice I've read has stressed vacuuming the tank daily to get as many of the Ich tromotes (?) out of the tank as possible. Should I remove the plants so I can better get to the gravel? It seems like the entire tank will just need to be thoroughly sterilized. I'm really glad I didn't put in the new sand substrate I bought in January, because once the Ich is under control, then I can change the substrate and start out as fresh as possible; surely the tank will need to cycle again anyway, so I guess I'm starting from square one.

I did get a new 10 gallon aquarium and Lady the goldfish has been temporarily relocated until the heat treatment is finished in the main tank. My pug dog discovered Lady (I had to put the tank on the floor) and he is fascinated by him and sits and watches Lady for 15-30 minutes at a time, LOL!

Thanks again, everyone, for being so helpful

 

[jsoong]

Generally, it is best to use only one thing at a time. If you are using Rid Ich, you should be fine with just that. I was just suggesting that if you are treating the main tank with heat, then the goldfish needed to be treated with something else while in the temp QT.

Yes, it is nice to vacuum out the cysts (trophants). In a planted tank, that is a problem as you really can't do a deep gravel clean. You have several choices:

1. The trophants will mature into tomites in 1-2 weeks (temp dependent), and if the tomites don't find a fish host in a few days, they die. So one way is to remove all the fish, turn up the temp in the planted tank, and wait a few weeks, and the plants & substrate would be rid of ich. <That is another reason to have a hospital tank to treat the fish in.>

2. You can treat the ich with the fish in the main tank. If the treatment is effective, and you treat for long enough ... ie a couple weeks after the last spot of ich is gone ... the ich in the p[lants & substrates should all be killed by the treatment.

3. You can remove the plants to a holding tank & treat the fish in the tank. Again, the ich on the plants will die without a fish host for a few weeks. This is more stressful to the plants with all the uprooting, etc.

 

[Twoapennything]

Yes, it is nice to vacuum out the cysts (trophants). In a planted tank, that is a problem as you really can't do a deep gravel clean.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified: I don't have live plants. I have fake plants. So I was thinking it might be a good idea to pull those fake plants out and disinfect them using the safe bleach method, as well as the decor. The tank would be a bit barren for a while, but better that than ich.

Today I just got a Marineland Stealth Pro heater, as my Theo heater would not get the tank's temp up above 80-81*, making the heat portion of the ich treatment methods pretty impossible. In fact, the tank was at 77* this morning, with the Theo heater being cranked up as high as it would go. I think it was just too small.

1. The trophants will mature into tomites in 1-2 weeks (temp dependent), and if the tomites don't find a fish host in a few days, they die. So one way is to remove all the fish, turn up the temp in the planted tank, and wait a few weeks, and the plants & substrate would be rid of ich. <That is another reason to have a hospital tank to treat the fish in.>

I'm also thinking of doing this. I would just plan on doing a huge PWC every day, as the QT is a 10 gallon. The ammonia will go nuts. But, otoh, I could really get into the main tank and take care of the ich in there and make sure it's disinfected properly (the decor and fake plants, I mean) and just let it run at a high temp for a couple of weeks, while doing vacuuming and PWCs, to let the tomites die off. I'm guessing that the tomites can't live out of water? If so, I could always fully empty the main tank and let it sit dry for a few days. I'd been planning on changing out the substrate anyway, from gravel to sand. I suppose I could also try to get a fishless cycle done before bringing the fish back into the tank.

 

[jsoong]

Oh, you have fake plants! That is a different story ... LOL

Yes, you can remove the plants & disinfected. I would be careful with bleach & silk plants ... some members had found out the hard way that bleach can take out all the colors in some of the plants. Since ich cannot survive out of water, drying everything out for a couple days is an easy way to disinfect your tank & decor.

I would not do a fishless cycle from scratch .... takes too long, and in the meantime your fish may suffer.

You have a few options in maintaining your bio-filter:
1. Keep the filter with your fish (even if you remove them to a QT for heat treatment). Ich will be gone from the filter after the heat treatment, and you still have an intact biofilter to transfer back to your newly redecorated main tank, so no need for any fishless cycling. And you can take your time cleaning & redecorating the main tank, since the heat treatment will take few weeks.

2. If your redecoration is not going to be too extensive, it might just be easier to treat the fish in the main tank as you now planned. Successful ich treatment will sterilize the tank, so additional bleach, etc. is really not necessary. Once your tank is ich free, you can just remove the fish to a holding tank & re-do your main tank. If that can be done in a few hours, your biofilter will be intact. And the fish won't be too stressed even if they are a bit crowded in the holding tank. <Within reason .... you do need a reasonable sized holding container even for short periods.>