Recommendations for tank with community & aggressive fis

[robertmarda]

I have a mix of fish (and one turtle) in my large fish tank that by most books is considered anywhere from poor planning to outright impossible. I started mixing these supposed incompatible fish just because the books indicated I couldn't do it (or it wasn't recommended). I have been relying on two theories to successfully mix agressive fish with community fish. The first theory is that if I get the aggressive fish small enough and it grows up with a bunch of other fish then it will be more docile (similar to raising a puppy and kitten together). My second theory is that if there are enough misc fish in the tank then the aggressive fish won't be able to target one fish long enough to kill it and the aggressive fish will discover it is futile to establish a territory because as soon as it chases one fish out of its territory 3 or more other fish have entered.

A year and a half ago (17 Jan 2002) I began this experiment by placing a small (quarter inch) convict cichlid in with all my community fish. In Dec 2002 I asked for advice on more fish to add to the tank and received excellent recommendations to add a firemouth and rainbow cichlid. I added a firemouth (about 1 and a half inches long) on 13 Dec 2002 and a one inch long rainbow cichlid 25 Jan 2003. In Jun 2003 I added another convict cichlid (about 1 inch long). On 22 Jul 2003 I added a Salvini cichlid that is about 4 inches long.

The above fish are living peacefully with a large pleco, various mollies, swordtails, platties, barbs, and tetras, and one 6 or 7 inch long red eared slider. Two or three of the fish I believe are bite sized for my 6 inch long convict cichlid (the one I have had for about 1 and a half years) and yet they are still alive. I have had one black neon tetra and one lemon tetra longer than all my aggressive fish.

All my aggressive fish should only grow to 6 inches or less (except possibly the salvini which could grow to 10 inches long). Now I am looking to add one or two more fish that have a slightly more aggressive temperament than those I currently have but perhaps not as aggressive as an african cichlid. I think I will eventually add one or two african cichlids but not just yet (and yes I would aclimatize them to a lower Ph than they are accustomed to - so any comments on doing this would also be appreciated). I prefer aggressive fish that won't grow longer than 6 to 8 inches. Also if anyone raises aggressives near Northern Virginia I would love to get them at the size of about an inch, if they are smaller I have another tank where I can raise them until they are large enough.

 

[robertmarda]

I guess I should have written my post differently. Let me put it another way. Forget there are community fish in the tank since up to now I have been able to keep aggressive fish from deciding the community fish should be harrassed and killed. Some of them do seem to have a small territories and on occassion chase fish out of it but they never chase them long enough to actually make contact or stress out any fish so that they try to hide.

What fish do you think would go well with 2 convict cichlids, 1 rainbow cichlid, 1 firemouth cichlid, and 1 salvini cichlid? I am looking for a fish that is not going to be too shy such as I have been told the ram can be.

As I stated before, I would like a fish considered slightly more aggressive than the aggressives I have but not as aggressive as the african cichlids. It doesn't matter to me if they are technically incompatible tank mates. I would prefer a fish that normally lives in a similar Ph to the fish I already have. I think the Ph is about 7.2 in this tank right now.

I am not trying to provoke fights nor trying to get fish killed. My goal is to prove I can get supposedly incompatible fish to live together in peace. I have a number of friends who have aggressive fish who can potentially take the new fish should it prove to be truly incompatible. I also have 2 other tanks, one of which is empty right now. So I have some backup plans should my efforts to maintain the peace fail.

 

[Jack]

If aggressive fish are raised together with community fish, they often tend to be less territorial. However, once they discover that bite-sized fish can be eaten, they will be.

Mollies, swords and such would likely do fine with firemouths (not very aggressive) and possibly even convicts as long as the mollies, swords and such were fairly large. They are all pretty fast swimming so if your fish can't swallow, they likely won't bother. Some fish like some puffers, will attack a fish and just maul it to pieces. Cichlids usually just swallow.

If you're looking for a more aggressive fish, you might want to try a puffer. Figure 8's are less aggressive than some other types. Most puffers appreciate brackish water. None of the fish you mentioned would have a problem with brackish water. In fact, they would probably prefer. Also, there are several types of catfish you should be able to keep. They're not necessarily aggressive, but should do fine with your fish.

I am setting up a tank with community fish and aggressive fish on purpose. Actually, it is somewhat of a species tank. I'm going to keep Belonesox Belizanus with guppies and mollies. Typically, Belonesox will only eat fish. The guppies and mollies are there to breed and produce food for the Belonesox. I also have Synondontis catfish and some otocinculus catfish. These should be safe with the Belonesox.

 

[robertmarda]

I spoke with a friend of mine who had a couple puffers. He said the problem he had was they would only eat live food. As fish keepers go, I am probably on the lazy side in that I want things as easy as I can get. I don't want to have to buy or provide live food all the time. As for brackish water, I don't think I want to go that route just now. I know they have a fresh water variety of the puffer. I'll investigate more about them, if I can get a puffer that will eat flakes or shrimp pellets or something then that might be a good option.

 

[TankGirl]

The only comment I have is that the tank is in danger of being overstocked. As far as suggestions, dwarf puffers are very, very tiny but are very aggressive as well, and don't contribute much to the bioload. These are completely freshwater. Mine eat frozen bloodworms, not exclusively live, if that makes a difference for you. Most would say they do not do well with other types of fish, so if you are looking for an experiment, that would be a good choice. I am dubious about the whole thing, though, and eventually the cichlids will in fact eat the smaller fish, if the turtle does not get to them first! I tried a somewhat similar thing (inadvertently, in my early days in the hobby) with oscars and everyone was fine for a long while, until the oscar got some size on him and cleaned out the tank. Come to think of it, the only thing that fish was intimidated by was a blue crawfish! Talk about a tough customer - that crawfish ate everything he could grab, and the oscar would not go anywhere near it.

 

[robertmarda]

I know that soon, the turtle will have to be moved to his own tank or he is likely to decide to eat all the fish. He will not be in this tank forever. He was a gift from my wife and since I had no place to put him he ended up in this tank with the other fish, but I am quite sure he will eat the fish once he grows a bit more and he has probably killed 2 already since the last time I saw them alive they were healthy and then I see him eating them. And some of the other fish can be moved to my 20 gallon tank as the cichlids grow. So I think that will help keep the tank from getting too overstocked. Then the thing I'll have to watch is as I reduce the number of fish in the tank how will the aggressives react.

Frozen food is ok, the point is I don't plan to go to the pet store every week or two to get live food and the fish I breed are not feeder fish and I have no intention of using my limited tank space for feeder fish.

 

[TankGirl]

If you do go with the FW puffers they can live on frozen bloodworms, but if you are not feeding your other fish that anyway then it would be a trip to the LFS every couple of weeks, so that might be too annoying. Sounds like you have a good plan with the 20 gal tank, so good luck with this and keep us posted!

 

[Jack]

Sorry, I thought you mentioned brackish water somewhere. I know folks keep figure 8's with cichlids and don't feed only live food. They should do fine in FW. Many fish can live in FW to brackish water. Relatively few can only live in brackish water. Obviously, most fish (when you look @ all fish) can only live in saltwater.

Anyway, good luck.

 

[TankGirl]

Figure eight puffers are true brackish fish and DO need brackish to be healthy and thrive. They can probably survive in fresh but their bodies are designed for brackish. I think he nixed the figure eight idea, anyway.

 

[Xenos]

That turtle needs a way to get out of the water and I'm suprised you aren't having a problem with the ammonia. Turtles are incredibly dirty animals. Also red-eared Sliders will get the size of a dinner plate. They need special reptile lighting in order to metabolize calcium. With out proper lighting and also a basking light for heat, your turtle won't survive more than a few months. They need heat to digest food. Becareful though and get a low wattage so you don't have turtle soup. Turtle needs a place to get out. Fish environment is not acceptable.

 

[Jack]

Actually, the fish is from Southeast Asia and there is some debate as to what type of water the figure 8 prefers. http://www.pufferfish.co.uk/aquaria/species/pufferfish/types/tetrbioc.htm

This is only one reference, but confirms what I've always heard-- some folks say brackish, while others say fresh. Apparently, the fish will do fine in either, as long as the tank is properly maintained.

 

[TankGirl]

I agree that this is a debated issue, but based on info I have from folks who keep them, they seem to have better health and longevity in brackish. Now I wonder what Robert Marda has decided for his tank...

 

[Jack]

"Now I wonder what Robert Marda has decided for his tank..."

Good question.

Also, if it were me, I would keep in brackish water unless the other fish in the tank could not tolerate salt. I have guppies, sailfin mollies and will soon have Belonesox (pike topminnow) in my tank. Many claim these all do fine in FW. However, I choose to keep mine in brackish.