Refreshing my memory for freshwater

[sir_dudeguy]

Ok, i've been out of freshwater stuff for i'd say 3 years now...i only have saltwater now (and i should update my profile to reflect what i have )

Anyways, i just kinda wanted to "remember" all the stuff about freshwater, seeing as i kinda wanna start one up again and i just started working at a pet store that sells them...so obviously i need to know about it.

My first question...the cycle. I know that most prefer the fishless cycle w/just a dead shrimp, correct? About how long should that take? Around 6 weeks or so, correct? And do any of those "cycle" products work? Like the stuff that make your tank "instantly cycle" or whatever? I know they dont work for saltwater really, but how bout fresh?

Next...does freshwater so much use a "cleaning crew" like saltwater would? Like in saltwater, you've got all the snails, hermit crabs, starfish, etc.. that all eat poo and algae and whatnot. Does freshwater have anything like that? Or do we rely more on manual removal of scum/algae via vacuums and stuff?

Now, what about stocking? I know freshwater can usually be a lot more heavily stocked than saltwater...but just how full can it be? I'm thinking of getting a 55 going since i've already got the stand..just need a tank. I know that i'll prolly want to get an elephant nose...that was always my favorite fish before i broke down my old freshwater tank. And now that i actually know about water chemistry and stuff after doing salt, i'm fully confident that i can get one to survive for more than 3 months now

But anyways, i'd like the elephant nose, and i sorta want to build around him...i always liked neons, so i may count those in...how many could i get in a 55? should be a bunch, right? Like 20? And if i got 20 of those, would i be able to keep any other schools of fish? I like the rummy nose tetras, so if they would be fine together, again, how many of those could i add?

Last fish that i know i'd like right off the top of my head is south american puffers...i used to have a pair of them and they were so nice...too nice to the point where they were bullied by my little pygmy/dwarf puffer which was a half inch and they were 3 or so inches lol...but that guy ended up killing both, so he was traded off after that happened. But would the 2 SA puffers go w/an elephant nose, and maybe a couple schools of tetras in a 55? I'm not set on numbers in the schools...maybe 20 is a bit high, but i think it'd be neat to have 2 different schools of fish...as long as they dont school together which they may i suppose.. It seems to me that that stocking list for a 55 is ok, but again, i havent done freshwater for years so i have forgotten pretty much everything except the basics.

Last thing in this novel...planted tanks and sand...for my old tank i just used play sand from walmart/home depot and it worked for over 2 years before i converted to salt...so i can use this, correct? But how is that play sand w/plants? I love live plants, not so sure i would be committed to cutting them back too often lol, but ya...would they be fine in just play sand? Not looking to grow anything difficult, just some basic stuff like maybe swords and anubias and stuff... I've seen all those "fertalized" sand bed things that you put under the top layer of gravel...needed or no? I've seen where you can just stick like a pellet or like a fertilizer stick under the sand to help plants grow...wouldnt that work too?

Ok, sorry for all the questions all at once, but that should be all for now...if i think of anything more (i will) i'll ask later

Thanks in advance for anyone who actually takes the time to read this!

 

[jsoong]

1. Fishless cycle varies depending on temperature & ammonia source. The raw shrimp method is the most variable (and smelly!), but about 6-16 weeks from scratch. If you seed with media from an established tank, you can shorten that significantly. <Given enough media, you can have an instant cycle ... eg I keep a couple of spare filters in my sump, so I never have to cycle the QT.>

2. Cycle products don't work .... except for live media (Biospira is the only one I know of comercially).

3. Cleaning crew - depending on your fish load, etc. Planted tank will benefit from an algae cleaning crew from the start ... SAE, OTOs, etc.

4. Stocking - varies by fish .... don't have enough experience with the ones you mentioned.

5. Sand is fine for plants - but you need to add fertilizer (regularly) as it is inert. Alternatively, you can try eco-complete & other plant substrates ... but sand is cheap ....

 

[fish 'n' fries]

As for the plants, you definitely can grow plants in sand...especially if you're planning to stick with lower light plants (and the slower growth). The swords (and crypts which are good for low light) would benefit from root tabs. Anubias doesn't need to be "planted" just attached to wood or rocks. I wouldn't bother with an expensive specialize substrate if you want a lower light, slower growing tank.

I don't know much about puffers...but my understanding is most of them are species-only tank fish because of the aggression issues. I'd guess you'd need another tank for them.

You probably could keep a school of neons and a school of rummys easily. Looks like elephant noses get big so you may want to not have 20 of both...but maybe ten or so of each?

Clean up crews are nice...otos are great for algae. Corys are also nice as bottom feeder to clean up whatever the tetras miss.

 

[sir_dudeguy]

I don't know much about puffers...but my understanding is most of them are species-only tank fish because of the aggression issues. I'd guess you'd need another tank for them.

I wont add the little pygmy puffer, he's a mean punk lol. But those SA puffers i had were completely harmless to everything else in the tank. They reminded me of puppies the way they'd swim around and follow you around the tank begging for food

I was also thinking of cutting the tetra schools down a bit...at least 15, maybe just a dozen each?

Also just thought of kuhlie loaches...used to have those too and loved em. I had 4 of those w/my SA puffers and they were one of the coolest ones in the tank.

I may also just judge how they all do together as far as adding more fish...i'll start w/the schools of fish first, then the kuhlies and other bottom dwellers, and then maybe the puffers, not positive on those 2 yet...and the elephant nose last.

Thanks both for your input and time

 

[supermazz9]

be careful what you add to go with your elephant noses. in fact, I don't know if a EN will really be appropriate for your tank. They can grow up to a foot long, I understand, and I've been told you should get at least three, with lots of space for them to hide and rest. these are also a nocturnal fish. You might want to spend a little time researching combinations while you let your cycle happen.

you can go and get pure ammonia to do a cycle, just be sure that there are no additives in the ammonia. shrimp are usually suggested since you know it will only produce ammonia, while sometime ammonia bottles can be misleading.

Bio-spira works great for kickstarting your cycle. Make sure the store you purchase it from keeps it in a fridge and check the exp. date.

 

[evercl92]

Sure, most people prefer a fishless cycle. Makes sense. The problem is that customers are not going to wait 6weeks for a cycle before they can add fish. People want fish, and they want them starting the day they come in. I've tried telling, arguing, informing...it just doesn't work.

Just give the customer zebra danios or another hardy fish to get them started. They are cheap, hardy, and tolerate less-than-optimal conditions. Tell them to come back in a week or so, with a water sample (assuming you'll do water testing at the store) and check the ammonia and nitrite. If numbers look ok, proceed to inform them to get fish at a slow, reasonable pace - not to get a bunch of fish all at once. If ammonia or nitrite levels are elevated, I inform them to return in a week, or better yet, sell them the test kits to check on their own, and they can return at their convenience.

I've had very good luck with Bio-Spira. It's the only 'insta-cycle' product I've found to do anything. I've cycled a 180gal tank in 2 days with 2 doz goldfish and Bio-Spira.

Cleaning crew: Otocinclus, siamese algae eaters, bristlenose/clown/rubberlip plecos, snails, shrimp, florida flag fish

From what I've read, elephant nose prefer solitude - unless you have a big tank - say 150gal. They use an organ that functions similar to SONAR, so you don't want to place them in a tank with other fish that operate like that (knives and other elephant noses).

 

[sir_dudeguy]

yes, the elephant nose do prefer solitude. They "school" when young, and brake off on their own when older, i remember now I also remembered that i saw some weird fact that they have the largest brain to body size ratio out of any animal or something like that...i think they were behind only one animal...maybe dolphins??? cant remember lol.

As far as customers wanting fish ASAP...they do indeed lol. I've done the same....make sure that i really stress the fact that they're really not supposed to add fish before its cycled and the fish will more than likely die, but they insist upon getting a fish so i try to get them something like the danio's or a swordtail or something really hardy and cheap. That way when half the people bring their now-dead fish back in, its not so much of a money loss if its just a danio or whatever.

Anyways, thanks for the info! Looks like i'll be looking for biospira...dont think my store carries that stuff...i'd have to go to a regular LFS for it i spose...i'm just at petco right now.

 

[evercl92]

That way when half the people bring their now-dead fish back in, its not so much of a money loss if its just a danio or whatever.

I really don't have people bringing them back dead. It's actually kinda rare. If you do the fish addition gently, and they actually follow that, I've really not had much problem with it.

Forgot to mention:

Fixed up with enough plants, you could easily put 2 schools of 15 fish and your elephant nose in the 55gal. You'll want some fast growers, to help control possible ammonia, so get something like ludwigia, hygrophila, anacharis, etc to go along with the slow growers swords, anubias, java fern. Fertilizer tabs work great, especially in substrates that aren't nutrient rich, such as sand. Stock your tank heavy with fast growing plants first - that will not only help start your cycle, but will assist in removing any ammonia that your first fish may cause to spike. As your tank becomes established, remove fast growers slowly and you can replace with slow growers. I had removed all fast growers from my tank once - algae issues within a couple days. (granted I run 390wt of light on my tank). but it still wasn't the best move.

The elephant noses grow so slow, I'd say you should be able to house one in that tank for quite a while.

 

[sir_dudeguy]

Ok thanks! What fert tabs would you recommend?

Oh, another thing. I'm getting a free 75g tank from my boss on monday. However i'm gonna be using it for a chinese water dragon...basically a paludarium, in which there may be 5-10g of water. What submersible filter would be good for 5-10g? Obviously i wont be having the same fish i wanted, if any when i get the dragon

 

[evercl92]

Basically, any root tabs will work. I've used both root tabs on this page, and I've used a cheaper brand as well. Main concern is K and Fe content. A lot of the plants that will benefit the most from the tabs are gonna require extra K and Fe - notably swords and crypts - while not allowing algae to receive the nutrients.