'Sheltering' our Fish

[mfdrookie516]

I just got thinking during another thread... dangerous, I know.

Fish in the wild are exposed to all kinds of things that fish in our tanks are not. Most of us strive to keep perfect water quality and prevent anything from coming in to our tanks from the wild. We always recommend disinfecting things that come from nature like driftwood, rocks, and plants. Are we keeping our fish in a 'bubble'? Do fish get sick so easily because we're sheltering them from all of these 'natural' things? They always say that kids who's parents make them wash their hands 20 times a day, don't take them outside during alergy season, don't let them get dirty, etc etc always get sick more. Is this the case with fish? Are we slowly making weaker specimins by preventing them from coming in contact with all the, so called, 'dangerous' things in the wild?

 

[Morgie]

In a nutshell, no. Fish in the wild are not in self-contained environments. If something harmful gets in the water, the volume is large enough that it will be dilute. With rain and natural waterflow and filtration, most toxins don't last long enough in the water system to cause substansial damage.
Most of the weakening fish specimens are produced by inbreeding.
Curious to read what other people think!

 

[mfdrookie516]

I get what you're saying... but at the same time, think of all the things in lakes and rivers that aren't in tap water because of the treatment processes to make it 'safe' (which is debatable IMO) for us to drink. Thinking opposite of that, consider all the things that are in tap water that aren't in lakes and rivers.

 

[maxwellag]

My thoughts on this:
No exposure to the natural causes of illness=no immunization.
No exposure to causes of illness (other than ones inside the tank)=no illness from external causes. If the fish were to be released, I think it would become ill rather easily because it never became immune to that form of bacteria or germ or whatever. Sure, a fish may have a strong immune system and have a low chance of getting fungal infections, but in the wild I think it would have a much higher chance because it isn't immune to it yet. Viruses and diseases change their form. In a tank there may only be one form, ever, but in the wild it would probably change. So (just a visualization:... ) a person may be exposed to influenza a and become immune after inflammatory response, but sicknesses adapt every so often. (Which is why most people get immunization shots every year, because illnesses change so much) so when that person is exposed to the new form, they will undergo inflammatory response, and if the immune system is strong enough, the person will become immune to that form. So the fish essentially do have weaker immune systems in tanks because they are missing all the becoming immune. If the fish was every released into the wild, it would probably not do very well. If it did make it, its immune system would become equal with the other fishs' in the wild. So if there was never any cross breeding (between wild and domestic [or tank bred] fish) then I would expect a comparison between a wild and tank bred fishs' immune systems100 years from now to end up with these results:
Wild caught fish: showed signs of illness for 3 days, got over it
Captive bred fish (same species as above): immunes response for much longer, and possibly never getting over it (dying)
The above experiment would submit both types of the fish to a virus, and the manipulated variable is the type of fish (captive bred or wild caught). The other variable (can't remember what the word is... darn) is the fishes response to the virus.
Of course this potential issue can be solved with genetic engineering... I may end up doing this in college!

 

[Morgie]

I've done genetic engineering before. It's very fun (and interesting) stuff.
I agree with what you posted as well for the most part

 

[OhNeil1969]

I will say one thing: I think our fish are a lot hardier than we give them credit for. Like those parents that don't let their children out for fear of illness, I think we can be over-protective concerning our fish. As mfd said, the natural environment doesn't have many of the safeguards in place that a well kept aquarium will have. And while Morgie is correct about nature's open environment, wild fish still have to contend with issues successfully to survive. I don't think we are breeding weakness into our fish by maintaining good water quality and quarantining new additions to ensure they aren't introducing new diseases. But just how parents who are over-protective of their children ultimately stunt/hinder their natural development, I think we do the same with our fish.

 

[steez]

This topic is very intriguing, what mdf said does make sense. Pollutants would probably work their way away from fish rather quickly in the wild. Our fish will be exposed because it's the same exact water being recycled back.

But.. the weaker fish would die using this concept. The strong would survive, and breed. Would they start to breed a stronger fish?

 

[Gboy66]

I just got thinking during another thread... dangerous, I know.

Fish in the wild are exposed to all kinds of things that fish in our tanks are not. Most of us strive to keep perfect water quality and prevent anything from coming in to our tanks from the wild. We always recommend disinfecting things that come from nature like driftwood, rocks, and plants. Are we keeping our fish in a 'bubble'? Do fish get sick so easily because we're sheltering them from all of these 'natural' things? They always say that kids who's parents make them wash their hands 20 times a day, don't take them outside during alergy season, don't let them get dirty, etc etc always get sick more. Is this the case with fish? Are we slowly making weaker specimins by preventing them from coming in contact with all the, so called, 'dangerous' things in the wild?

Haha is this from my thread? I mean, rivers and lakes are so big and have such a large volume of water, contaminents can be absorbed easier. A good example would be 10 and 100 gallon tanks. It is much easier to keep a 100 as far as water quality goes. But, i would say that some fish overtime, have come to adapt to a "pampered" lifestyle. I mean, i doubt german blue rams or discus die as often in the wild due to health problems and bad water quality

 

[jetajockey]

We disinfect everything going into the tank for the same reason we don't allow tank fish to go free into the wild. We can't eliminate every pathogen introduced, but its a good idea to minimize them for the sake of the fish we keep.

In nature, it's a numbers game. The weak and sickly get weeded out, and the strong survive. You could do this in an aquarium as well, but you'd probably be replacing fish quite often.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Actually, I think there is a lot of true to the thought. If you look at Ick for example, fish in the wild are pretty much exposed to this without question. In fact, the introduction of a wild fish in with aquarium raised fish has a significant risk of introducing Ick into the tank. The wild fish will remain healthy, while the tank raised fish will contract the disease.

 

[jetajockey]

Definitely, it's like exposing fish to certain things to boost resistance, it's just a matter of whether people want to risk sacrificing their own stock to do it.

 

[rfurlan.2009]

This will sound strange to a lot of you....
I always love cichlids, I once keep them with silver arowanas...
Oscars are strong fish... Arowanas are more delicate...
Had a 5' tank and by been single on the hunt most of times, did not do mutch to keep the water quality under control... Did some water changes once every two to three Months.... Bad I know! Filter routine wasn't any better, will clean when clogged...
Fish did have problems here and there but did take care promptly eatch time and actually ending with very healty and strong fish!
Will not recommend as a guidline for fishkeeping, but the true is, we underestimate the strenght of some fish...

 

[alLexX]

i dont think that we are weakening them by doing that. if i could get driftwood, rocks,etc from where my fih are native to,it would go right in,but none of my fish are native to around here and the water is very polluted,so i dont want to risk it.

 

[mfdrookie516]

^ My point is... there are fish that live in these 'polluted' waters. We don't subject our fish that we keep to the same types of pollution.

 

[rfurlan.2009]

I cannot agree more. I still feel bad for those fish....
I have never did anything like thy to any of my other fish and the reward for keeping the water quality to the best standard is enormous!
My say is: if u keep any creature in a cage or tank, remember that they can not take care of themself.... It is your responsability to treat them the way u will like to be treated if situations where the. Way round....

 

[jetajockey]

There's an LFS near me that keeps an arowana along with a bunch of JD's, a few oscars, and other large cichlids in a 400+ tank.

 

[steez]

There's an LFS near me that keeps an arowana along with a bunch of JD's, a few oscars, and other large cichlids in a 400+ tank.

LFS near me does 2 Jag's, 1 huge ghost knife, 1 arowanna and 2 large pleco's in a big tank. Very cool to see.

 

[jetajockey]

Speaking of ghost knifes, I have had mine for about 2 weeks now. He still hides in the plants most of the day, but he's out rooting around when the moonlights come on. He's about 4" long.

 

[ashleynicole]

For kids, yes, we need to let them go play in the dirt and get their immune systems built up with beneficial bacteria. I am a registered nurse, my kids play in the dirt and get filthy from head to toe. We don't even use antibacterial soaps, just regular soap and water. My kids get a bath every night before bedtime and they practice normal basic hygene. They get sick a few times a year, especially when starting preschool just like normal kids, but they get their vaccines and their flu shot as well. We've had a few rough illnesses with my littlest one because he has reactive airways, but despite allergies I still let him go out all the time and be exposed to the outdoors and we even buy locally grown honey to help boost immunity to local allergens. I do use a hepa filter in the bedrooms when they sleep, but that doesn't prevent them from being exposed to allergens during the day, just keeps them from getting congested when they are laying down sleepign

However, with fish in a closed system, it is important to protect them from external infections because they do not have access to the same things as wild fish.

Example: Indoor vs. outdoor cats

I have indoor cats now, They have their vaccines and they get flea prevention and get fed good food. They don't get sick often or have any problems except for hairballs

When I lived on our farm, we had outdoor cats. We did get them vaccinated and occasional flea prevention, but that's about it. One of my big black cats got bit by a rattle snake. I don't know what kind but there were two huge fang marks on his leg and it swelled up and he was laying on the back porch. I cleaned the wound with peroxide and applied neosporin. He layed there for about two days and we all thought he was a gonner. Then one of our other cats, an orange tabby, was up in a tree carrying down something, looked like moss? We watched him take it to the sick cat and the sick cat ate it. Literally ate the whole thing. The next day he was better, the swelling in his leg went down and he started moving around...

Conclusion: There are amazing things in nature that we will never be able to reproduce. That is why we must keep the fish in an enclosed system safe and treat for infections/parasites, especially things like ich. In the wild, in huge open systems, their immune systems may be able to fight off the little parasite. But in an enclosed system this parasite will continue to reproduce and reinfect.

 

[nedge85]

Quite possibly the most interesting and intruiging thing on this forum