Sick Fair Fish Trying to Save Them

[Nycra]

Hello,

I have a number of questions that I hope someone can answer with layman terms. I have never had an aquarium.

We recently obtained a few goldfish from our county fair. (I honestly only let my 3 year old play because I was SURE she wouldn't win... She couldn't even see over the booth... I didn't have the heart to take away her prize & figured we would care about them more than the people running the booth who seemed completely indifferent to their needs.) We decided to try and house them temporarily. We were under time-constraints/cash constraints/etc... So here is the situation:

Day 1: We brought them home in their bags & transferred them to a large bowl.
Day 2: We bought a 10 gallon tank with an LED hood, & filtration system. We bought a long air rock, gravel & a couple synthetic plants. We set up the tank per instructions, adding the included water conditioner. We added the 5 goldfish to the tank.
Day:10 We added a small pleco, & a second-hand ornament.
Day 12: All fish have white spots that we've identified as Ich.
Day 13: We buy Coppersafe and add to tank as per instructions. (We figured 8 gallon ration because of gravel taking up a good portion of the bottom. We did not remove carbon filter because box instructions said not to if it was over a week old...)
Day 14: 1 goldfish died. 3 others are huddled at the bottom, eating normally but very lethargic & different from when they 1st arrived... 1 of those 3 has a bloody looking tummy... The tank bully has Ich but is active & acting normally.

Here's what I already know from HOURS of forum reading: 1. We should have cycled the new tank, but adding them immediately seemed better than leaving them gasping for air in a bag or bowl. 2. This tank is too small for goldfish, any goldfish...but we don't have a choice at the moment, this is what we have to work with until they are larger & we can possibly release them in a known goldfish pond. 3. Coppersafe is bad & has lasting effects we didn't know about until it was too late. We do not plan on ever adding invertebrates to this tank., 4. I cannot find another home for them, I've asked local pet stores (private & corporate) & they all said NO! 5. We realistically do not have the time to change the water every day, or the cash to buy a lot of additional equipment. We're already in the hole around 175.00 on the 2.00 fair fish. I care about them as living beings, I'm nearly sick over all of this. I want to do the best I can, but I am looking for non-judgmental realistic help. I'm willing to invest as much time & money as I realistically have. But telling me to have separate hospital tanks & additional air rocks with more equipment & a 55 gallon per goldfish is honestly not realistic or helpful to me. (I really do appreciate the knowledge & advice people have to offer but after reading hundreds of posts where the initial question was never answered & the asker was attacked for doing all the wrong things I felt the need to defend my actions & intentions the best I could.)

We have:
1. 10 gallon tank w/LED hood, 2.5" of new gravel, 3 faux plants, 1 small decorative rock, & 3 tiny sun bleached seashells.
2. 4 Goldfish
3. 1 Pleco
4. Coppersafe
5. A Tetra Whisper Medium Filtration System built into the tank (w/carbon filters)
6. Tetra Aquasafe Dechlorinator & Conditioner
7. Fungus Guard (treats fin & mouth fungus & secondary bacterial infections).
*We have not used this but bought it just in case.

What we do not have is:
1. A heater of any kind (which is ok for these cold water fish from what I've read).
2. Testing equipment/strips
3. Money for a bunch of new equipment.
4. Experience

I will be taking a water sample with me tomorrow to a private pet shop to get readings, but I would love to go armed with some information on the bare necessities to save these poor little guys that are at least temporarily dependent upon me. (We really want a beta & a couple of neon tetras after we can find a new proper home for the goldfish. I know I'll need a heater for him.)

 

[Berylla]

Thanks for the long explanation. You do not need to medicate for ich. Buy a heater, not the ones sold at Walmart, but the ones that can increase their temperature to 86 degrees.

To kill the ich, raise temps in the tank to 86 degrees for 2 weeks. Change the water out 50% every day. Feed lightly 2x a day (tiny pinch) to keep the water quality up. Vacuum substrate 1x a week. Your tank should be cycled in 3 weeks.

 

[Fishfur]

Very nice to see someone care for those sad little gold fish. It shouldn't be allowed to give them as prizes.

Heating the water speeds up the ick life cycle, but it will reduce the oxygen in the tank water too. Warm water holds less oxygen. If the fish are gasping at the surface, if possible, the smallest air pump with an air stone will help improve the oxygen content for the time needed. Ick are at one point free swimming, so water changes will reduce the number of them, but it can take awhile. Salt is often used to treat ick.. cheap, effective as a rule, but I am not sure how well goldies tolerate salt and the pleco can't have salt. There are a few meds that also work. You can't rehome those fish until the ick is gone or it will infect every fish where they go.

Any chance you can return the pleco, once the ick is sorted out ? It is not really suited to a 10 gallon tank, or goldfish. Many plecs get to be a fair size, too big and they are very dirty fish, like goldfish are as well. By that I mean they poop, a lot !

Betta do not necessarily need heat, unless the house is kept pretty cool. They do fine around 75 - 76 or so, if you can manage that. They do better in tanks no smaller than 2.5 Gallons, which is the smallest tank I'd keep one in. Bettas prefer quiet water, with little current moving it, but can do fine without a filter, just bi weekly water changes of 50%. Try finding a used tank, they are often quite cheap to get.

You can substitute filter floss and sponge for whatever refill the filter is supposed to use. They are cheaper, the sponge lasts almost forever, needing only to be squeezed out well in tank water every week or so, same for floss, though it does not last forever. I keep it going til it is falling apart though.

I did not know you could cure ick just with temperature. I thought you had to do something to kill off the free swimmers ?

 

[Nycra]

I appreciate the information thus far, but have a few more questions.
1. Why are they all huddled at the bottom? (We feed a small amount twice a day. All food is gone within 2-3 min)
2. Why does 1 have a bloody looking belly? (Internal parasite or is it from resting on the rocks?)
3. We have already used the Coppersafe for the Ich, but are now doing 50% water changes daily. Do I add more?
4. We have a large air stone (nearly the length of the tank) but if they're not huddled at the bottom they're gulping at the top?

Again, thank you & I'll have water readings tomorrow. ~Nycra

 

[Fishfur]

Very hard to say, sadly. But behaviour that is not typical is often a symptom of some disease or other problem. Ammonia can cause lethargy in fish, but then they often don't eat and yours eat.

Redness on the belly that looks as if it is shining through from inside can be a sign of an internal infection and if this is the case, there may be nothing you can do. It is not likely from rubbing rocks, you'd see missing scales and more probably fungus invading the damaged area. I would isolate a fish like that, with a red belly, but you can't, so no point fussing over it.

They might have been taking ill simply from being in those bags at the fair, I should think the ammonia in the bags would have been pretty high, and it does a lot of damage in not much time. Burns gills, can cause internal damage too. But if they were having trouble breathing I would expect them to be at the surface, since they can use air to some extent.

I have no experience with Coppersafe, but once the tank's been changed over several times it will be gone, so you'd be able to keep inverts if you wanted to. It won't persist, it gets washed out with water changes. The only med I have heard of that is said to be really good with Ick is Kordon's Ick med, forget the exact name, sorry.

I've never had to treat ick thank heaven. But everything I have read about it has agreed that the parasites cannot survive without a host, and the only time they are vulnerable to medication is when they are in the free swimming stage, before they attach to a fish. They spend time on the bottom developing, then begin to swim and hunt for a host. If all the fish die, god forbid, the tank will be ick free in a week, they will die with no hosts to live on.

You heat to speed up the ick life cycle, medicate to kill the swimmers, and once there is no sign of new spots for a few days, it's gone for good so long as it is not introduced again via water from another source. I've never read it can be cured solely with heat, but I am not the god given expert on ick either. I read on line and I'm on other forums, and can only go on what I read and hear. Salt works to kill the swimmers, but your plec can't handle it, which is unfortunate.

I truly wish you the best of luck. You have tried very hard to do the right thing, and many would not have bothered. I think you deserve real thanks for that.

 

[Wiggles24]

You don't NEED medication to kill ich, heat is plenty. Honestly 88 is about the right temp to get rid of ich but I don't know how goldfish would go in water that warm. I haven't kept goldfish since I was a kid so idk if anybody else here has had experience treating ich with heat on a goldfish.

 

[Fishfur]

The joy of the net. So much information, and very little way to verify how accurate any of it is. And just because you read it in ten places, means nothing, it was likely copied verbatim anyway.

As I said, had not heard before that temperature alone would do the trick. I do know goldfish don't handle heat particularly well, but they do survive in shallow ponds in the southern US and Asia, so they obviously can manage it for some time. Perhaps it just shortens their lives as most stresses tend to do, so they live ten years instead of twenty.

I will never claim to be any kind of expert, but I never pass on any information I know to be false, and that's the best I can do.

 

[NinjaTetra]

I hate to break it to you, but Ich is pretty hard to beat. I am glad you researhed it so much. My dad kept goldfish for a few years in bowls back in the seventies, so you should be okay temporarily. However, I recomend seeing if you can relocate then to a person- maybe someone you know who has a fishtank. I lost 7 fish to Ich, but my 8th survived after raising the temperature to 84, adding some salt (which petsmart gave for free because it was their fish introducing the Ich) and half a dose of some medication that was API brand for my gallonage. They are probably gasping because of ammonia levels- try and get an ammonia removing medication if possible. The pleco will have Ich by now, but it will be too small to see- its microscopic and free swimming at first, then grows a hard white shellish hung around it to protect it. The free swimming young die in the salt water, and the Ich treatment eye the white spots. Generally if you see Ich then it has been attacking the fish for a long time. Your only real hope in this is: remove the pleco(hey produce waste like crazy and unless its a clown pleco it needs more then 55 gallons. If its a clown then it needs at least 35. And salt will kill them because they don't have scales- bla bla bla thats a catfish thing.) The ammonia levels could also cause constipation, causing bloating, possibly causing the bloody stomach. Fish keeping is complicated, isn't it?

 

[jlk]

Heat is not appropriate for treating goldfish with ich. Treating at a .3% salinity is the safest option. Heat will speed the life cycle of the parasite but do not increase it beyond 80f. This level of salinity will not be tolerated by the pleco.

Your fish's symptoms are indicative of high ammonia exposure from the fair conditions, disease issues, copper exposure and the likelihood ammonia is present now.

Healthy water needs to be the first priority here before addressing disease issues or the recovery process will be impeded. If returning the pleco is an option, please consider doing so as soon as possible.

Once these guys are healthy, you can consider your options for these guys. I am not sure where you are located but consider contacting local pond supply stores, googling local koi and goldfish clubs and checking Craigslist for rehoming considerations. Please ask any questions!

 

[Nycra]

Thanks to everyone so far. Sooooo... The Coppersafe that has already been introduced will not be enough to take care of the Ick that they have? Is the coppersafe gone because of the massive water changes I have done? Is the 10.00 bottle now just a cabinet ornament or should I add more since it has already been introduced? Can I use regular table salt? What type of testing equipment to I need at a bare minimum to regulate the tank? If I lose all of the Goldfish (which at this point seems so very likely) but the Pleco remains when can I introduce new fish appropriate for my tank size? When will I know the Ick is gone? (There is no way I can return the Pleco knowing that he is infected with a parasite that his previous tank mates may not have, and honestly we got him from Meijer and I am 99% sure they would not take him back after their reaction to relocating the goldfish...) We know absolutely no one with fish... We know of a public pond with goldfish which is where we considered releasing these guys once they were a bit bigger and healthy...

 

[Fishfur]

No table salt. Kosher salt, sea salt, pickling salt, all ok. Table salt has additives to make it flow and resist caking so it's not good.

I need to research Coppersafe, to find out if there is any point to continue using or not. Might be shelf ornament, sadly, but I'll get back to that.

I don't want to add to your already confusing burden, but I read a good study last night on treating Ick, specifically in catfish. Yes, they are sensitive to salt, no question about that. But in the short term, this study showed that catfish with ick that were treated with higher salt concentrations actually recovered from Ick better and faster than those treated without salt or at lower levels. It is longer term exposure to salt that caused problems in the catfish. Some people add salt to their tanks all the time because they think it is a good preventive measure, and catfish would do very poorly in that kind of tank. But as treatment, salt is short term and overall survival was better with it than without.

So you might as well try salt, I think. It is by far the least costly method. If it was my fish, I would do this, because if you don't get the Ick under control you will lose the plec too, eventually, especially if the tank you have has had ammonia. Parasites weaken their hosts as they feed and each new one makes a new wound and adds to the burden. And if you do have ammonia in your tank, the plec is suffering with it, though likely not as badly as the goldfish, since he wasn't a fair prize.

I would not go crazy with the high temps.. 80, perhaps 82 at most, is high enough and would be less stress for all the fish. As best I was able to determine, it appears to have been a reputable study.

Salt needs to be mixed thoroughly into a good quantity of water you're going to use for a water change, totally dissolved into it, before adding to the tank.

Did you get water test results ? If it showed ammonia, then I agree with the previous poster that the goldfish's behaviour is likely due to ammonia. There is no cure for damage done by ammonia. Depending how severe the damage is, some fish may survive it, some may not, plec included.

It shortens life span and makes them more susceptible to any other infections around, and the ick is a terrible stress all by itself on already damaged fish. I think it was probably mostly being stuck in the bags.. that's not much water and they produce so much waste compared to most other fish. Plecs are one of the few as bad or worse than goldies for waste.

The ick parasite is only vulnerable to treatment of any kind when it is in the free swimming stage. Once attached to the host fish, nothing can touch it, nor when it first drops off the fish to the bottom, where it develops into the free swimming life stage. I'm sure you must have read the basic life cycle of this parasite, it's easy to find in many places. So it must be attacked in the free swimming stage, and the salt does that.

So salt the tank. Raise temp to 80, and hope for the best. Once you have seen zero sign of any ick on any fish for at least five days, then it is gone and you are done with it.

The only other way to manage it would be to remove the fish to yet another container, with totally fresh water and none from their current tank. That is yet another stress on them but it would allow the ten gallon to become ick free so you could safely use it, within a week. The parasite dies without hosts pretty fast. ,

If you did this, you'd treat this container. You could use a big plastic storage box for this, you don't need an actual aquarium, just a container. It is just a thought. If not, treat the tank.

Hopefully the plec survives, and hopefully some goldies do too. But the plec is certainly going to outgrow the ten gallon if he survives, and quickly, unfortunately. So unless you want to get a bigger tank anyway in the future, he will need a new home at some point.

Once the ick is gone, it should not be a problem to 'trade him in' at a fish store. You don't have to mention ick, if it is cured, it is cured, and it can't come back unless it is reintroduced with new fish that are infected. But you should be able to trade him for some other fish. This is often done when they outgrow their homes, so it won't seem odd to a fish store for you to ask to do this.

To maintain a tank properly, you need some basic water tests. Liquid kits are thought to be most accurate, and are cheaper in the long run. You need a minimum of an ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, pH test. Master kits are cheaper than buying them all separately, and would include all these and possibly a hardness test too, and will last quite a long time. You get a lot more tests for the money in the liquid ones than in the dipstick type ones.

Ideal tank conditions are zero ammonia, zero nitrite, and around 20 ppm of nitrate. pH is not so critical, most fish can adapt to a range, between 6.5 and 7.5, roughly, so it's not essential that it be a given value, only that it remain stable.

Temperatures depend on the fish being kept. If you kept cool water species, like danios, kuhli loaches,cory catfish, then room temperature water can be ok, assuming you don't keep the house very cool. If you got true tropical fish, such as tetras, then you need a heater as well.

You will need a heater to raise the temperature for the ick anyway. Get one that allows you to adjust the thermostat, not one that simply goes to a preset value.

It can take anywhere from two to six weeks to cycle a tank. Once it is cycled you could have some pretty fish that will have a reasonable life in a ten gallon tank, or some nice plants and fish.

If any of the goldies survive, they can certainly go to a pond and be better off for it.

 

[Fishfur]

I checked on Coppersafe. It says it is effective for a month, and you only need to use more for water used to change water, and only the amount for the water change itself not for the entire ten gallons. So if you change two gallons, dose the two gallons only.

It is said to be effective on ich, and if you decide to continue using it, don't use salt as well. One or the other. If you do not see the ick disappear within a week, then salt is an alternative you can try.

Since you have already spent the money for the product, and used it, and you don't have inverts, I really can't see a reason not to continue with it for now and see if gets you results. Follow the directions. You said your carbon was more than five days old, so the manufacturer says it can stay, but once you are done with the coppersafe, put in new carbon, and then change it out before you consider adding any inverts. Carbon is not necessary for most tanks most of the time, except to remove meds, colour or odour from water.

After a few weeks of regular water changes, the copper will be gone from the water and you would able to have snails or shrimp if you wanted to do that. If, and I hope this is not the case, but if all the fish die, then you'd just empty the tank, rinse it well, and refill it, and wait a couple of weeks, doing regular water changes of about 25% weekly, and then be sure the copper is gone, the ick is gone and snails or shrimp would be ok.

This is a decision only you can make. You are prepared for the goldfish not to survive, sadly. This is no fault of yours.. you have done more than most anyone would to try to give them a home, after ending up with them unexpectedly. Kind of a costly sort of lesson, but I give you great credit for trying so hard.

In the end, I hope you have a nice little tank with some pretty fish and plants you can enjoy for a long time, and that the goldfish go to a nice pond if they are able to.

Any more questions, just ask..and good luck.

 

[Nycra]

In the midst of all this I'm under the weather too, so my pet shop visit is postponed until tomorrow (Wednesday), so no water readings yet. I added a photo of the sickest looking goldfish who looks so very very sad that I'm considering buying clove oil tomorrow while I'm out... (I read that this is the most humane way to end his suffering?) All but the pleco have stopped eating & moving in general... I'm so very sad about the state of this.

I will look for some prime (ammonia medicine right?), a variable heater & a master test kit tomorrow at the local aquatic/pet store & continue with the Coppersafe I guess... My only consolation in all of this is that myself, my husband & my little girl have truly cared about & enjoyed having them in our home. Fishfur, thanks so much for all of your help & research. I'll be sure to post any future concerns/questions when this is all over & w/an updated water reading.

 

[Fishfur]

Prime will help. Very good product, and also economical, as it is very concentrated, so it lasts a long time. I wouldn't call it ammonia medicine though.. it just binds the ammonia to make it non toxic, so most test kits will still show ammonia, because many of them do not make a distinction between 'free' ammonia, which is the toxic one [ NH3] and ammonium, which is a bound up form that's not toxic, [ NH4]. Seachem makes a test that does tell you which kind of ammonia it is, API only tells you the total of both. Sorry if that is confusing.. it is the type of reagent that is used in the test that determines how it detects ammonia.

You'll see the chemical name NH2 also, that is nitrite, same as is used to preserve meats among other things. Not good for us, nor fish.

Seachem, the makers of Prime, have a really excellent website, it may be worth your time to read some of their information.

If I have helped I am glad to hear it and I am sorry it has been so difficult for you all, especially your little one. Hard to explain to the small ones sometimes, why things happen the way they do. Wishing you luck.

Poor fish, he does not look very happy at all.

If you have to use clove oil, at least you know you have saved them some pain. It's not easy but it can be the best thing at times. It takes awhile, so patience is needed to be sure the fish has passed on sometimes, I think there is a sticky on this topic in the sick fish forum.

 

[Nycra]

Well... Woke up today to a mass death... All are gone except the largest goldfish (who looks about like the others did yesterday) & the little Pleco. I'm pretty sure there is fin rot going on with the remaining goldfish as well as the Ick problem...

I broke down last night & bought a highly reviewed 50W heater, Melafix, an API Master freshwater test kit, & API slime something for water conditioning & slime coat. I figured it may help them (but now I'll just keep it for future tanks). =-(

So assuming I only have the pleco left by tomorrow, how do I properly clean & cycle this tank to get it ready for appropriate inhabitants. Anything else Ill need aside from what I have & what is on the way for a Beta & 3-4 tetras? Since the Pleco is pretty mottled any way how will I know the Ick is gone? If I'm sure his Ich is gone I'll be comfortable re-homing him.

 

[Fishfur]

You must wait at least four days after you see no signs at all of spots on the plec. Might want to make that a week, since the copper safe lasts a long time anyway. Then do two 50% water changes, with a couple of hours or so in between, to get most of the coppersafe out of the water. I'd wait at least a month, better two, before getting any inverts such as snails, just to be sure the copper has gone.

I'm not a big believer in the slime coat stuff alone, but combined with water conditioner it does no harm. Basically anything that irritates a fish's skin will produce more mucus, or slime, and I don't think there is any logic to trying to cause them to make more than they have already. If they have wounds, the wound must heal before it will have a slime coat again, so still not much point to trying to stimulate something that will happen naturally. Much more helpful simply to have clean water and stable water parameters. That does the most good.

Melafix has been around quite a long time, but that's not because it's the best stuff. A great many people think it is fairly useless, me among them. You might want to take it back, if only for credit toward fish later on. It is not going to do anything you can't do by keeping the tank in good shape.

Sorry for the losses, but it was probably not avoidable. Btw, mistake I made in the last post.. NO2, not NH2.. sorry 'bout that. I was tired and the typo slipped by my not very eagle eyes.

 

[Nycra]

Got home from the LFS to find the last of the fair fish floating... Got a water reading as well that said the tank was polluted but not terrible. He did not give me any numbers but said I had good & bad bacteria & some ammonia. Told me to do a 50% water change today & tommorow w/a gravel vac & come back on the weekend for another water test (my master kit from Amazon won't be here until Monday/Tuesday).

On a positive, he will also re-home the Pleco as soon as we are sure there is no Ick... So, I'll give him away & hopefully add the heater, Beta & Tetras around mid-September. This has been an expensive & emotionally draining lesson. (My 3 year old has dealt with it much better than I honestly.) Thanks again for your time, patience & experience, ~Michelle

 

[brennae]

Sorry to hear the fish died. I've been reading this thread since you started it. I'm glad to hear that there are people out there who care enough to try to save a few innocent "fair fish". I don't think some people think about other living beings but obviously you do. Good effort!

 

[Fishfur]

I sincerely hope you are able to get some nice fish and enjoy them, once the plec has been rehomed. Very few people would go to this much trouble and expense for a few goldfish, and it is really nice to see someone do that, though I'm truly sorry it did not turn out better.

Get some rest. Glad the little one is handling it ok.

 

[erarebirth]

I'm sorry to hear your battle did not end as hoped. I, too, give you props for trying so hard. They say often by the time you see behavioral changes in the fish, they are so far infected that there is probably no saving them, so they were probably done for before you even got them home. A few notes/thoughts I had as I read through this thread:
-as far as I'm aware, betas need to be kept alone because they will attack other fish, so I'm not sure if it's a good idea to get a beta with other fish in the same tank? (correct me if I'm wrong guys)
-I had an ich problem with my guppies when I started out, and to complicate matters I had little baby guppies in the tank as well, so I didn't want to try Melafix. The store gave me a natural remedy type medicine but it didn't work. I tried Melafix along with a treatment/technique called salt dips. I also got a heater to bump up the temp and completed frequent water changes. Between all this something kicked that ich in the butt.
-As far as I'm aware, rule of thumb is to have about a gallon of water per inch of fish? Apparently plecos are an exception to this rule as they are dirty?
-I've exposed my pleco to aquarium salt conditions (not knowing it was bad for him) and he's been OK. I also found an injured young bullhead fish in the wild once, and tried to help him with salt dips. Seemed to perk up his energy for a little while but he still died within 24 hours (not sure if bullhead are related to plecos or anything, but they also appears scale-less to me).
-For cleaning, I've read to stay away from all soaps/detergents, even with rinsing really well. They say some of the chemicals from soaps can get into the plastic things you put in your tanks and poison the fish, so don't do it, and don't use glass cleaners around the tank either! I'm told you can use vinegar to clean the outside glass. I usually try to clean my stuff with just plain water and a brush and let it dry (or boiling water if I want to kill any germies on it). I've heard using bleach to clean things is OK as well, as long as it's well rinsed and allowed to dry completely before returning to the tank. When I was having an infection problem, I received some advice from a guy who works at the local shed aquarium: he said any new live plants I introduce, to rinse them in diluted bleach+water mix (and then rinse again with plain water) to try and kill any possible bacteria/parasites on them before introducing them to the tank.
-I would clean any second hand equipment with the bleaching method before using it with your fish, but otherwise this could be a great way to save money on equipment. Craigs list might be a great resource for this.
-I don't know if you've read about it, but some people will "age" their water before putting it in the tank. By doing this, chlorine (if you have city water) is allowed to evaporate, and then you don't really need dechlorinator, since you've allowed the chlorine to evaporate. To do this, I collect gallon milk jugs, rinse them out really well, rinse with a bit of bleach, then more water, then let dry, and they are ready for storing/aging my water.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this stuff. These are just my experiences/what I've learned/heard. Good luck as you continue your aquarium hobby!