Something wrong with this fish?

[nlifs]

Hello,

Question re. one of my male furcata rainbowfish ...

I have two males and four females in this tank, and I've been noticing over the past few days that one of the males is quite hyper, displaying all of his bright colors and chasing females all over (also chasing his reflection in the glass) ... however, the other male is causing me some concerns. He is much more passive than the other one, much less colorful and his 'stomach' (at least, what I believe to be his stomach) is much darker than the active one. Finally, the passive fish seems to have something protruding from it.

Hopefully the pictures will shed some light on what I'm trying to explain.

One picture shows both fish, so you can see the difference in the color of their 'stomachs'. There's one picture highlighting the active fish and another showing the passive one. Finally, two pictures showing something protruding from the fish of concern. Likely poop but not 100% sure ...

Any thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks as always!

 

[Andy Sager]

I made this post: https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/diseases-382018.html a while back and I suggest you look at it. There is a link to a downloadable version to one of the best books with diagnosing charts to help figure out what your fish may have. These charts have saved a number of my fish over the decades as well as some very expensive fish. I learned half of what I know about diseases from it.
Because this is an older book, some of the medications it suggests may no longer be available or available under the old brand names but once you know what you are dealing with, we can better suggest available meds to treat the condition.

My first impression was that the male in color and chasing the females was in breeding shape so the submissive one is just the subdominant one during this process. Looking at the pictures, I don't recognize that " thing" hanging out of the anus as a worm OR a "normal" poo so there needs to be more symptoms to better help diagnose. This is why you really should have this book on your phone or computer so that you can see what else may be a better clue.

 

[nlifs]

Thanks Andy!

I've downloaded the book

You should sticky that post, if possible ...

Unfortunately, having read through the charts, I don't think I've reached a definitive diagnosis ...

Perhaps Chart 3.b.F? Although there it says 'many fish' ... whereas I only see one fish that is skinny ... also, I don't really see a general loss of color; only in the internal organ. Interestingly, we lost a panda cory earlier that had been turning black/very dark, similar to Chart 4.b.D ("No" box). Both of those point to an internal flagellate infection of the gut ... I obviously can't readily examine the dropping/feces but do you think this could be it?
What other symptoms can I look for to confirm?

I also took a look at the possible treatment recommendations and have no clue what the book is talking about ...

Also, currently it's just this one fish that seems to be affected.

On a completely unrelated note, we brought home a small group of ember tetras about 1.5 weeks ago, and one of them looked very pale/skinny and had one very cloudy eye. I did a bit of searching and thought it might be a physical injury that would improve over time and I'm happy to report that it does indeed seem to be doing better. Reason I mention this is that's exactly as it says in this book Chart 3c.G - Yes - Yes!

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks Andy!

I've downloaded the book

You should sticky that post, if possible ...

Unfortunately, having read through the charts, I don't think I've reached a definitive diagnosis ...

Perhaps Chart 3.b.F? Although there it says 'many fish' ... whereas I only see one fish that is skinny ... also, I don't really see a general loss of color; only in the internal organ. Interestingly, we lost a panda cory earlier that had been turning black/very dark, similar to Chart 4.b.D ("No" box). Both of those point to an internal flagellate infection of the gut ... I obviously can't readily examine the dropping/feces but do you think this could be it?
What other symptoms can I look for to confirm?

I also took a look at the possible treatment recommendations and have no clue what the book is talking about ...

Also, currently it's just this one fish that seems to be affected.

On a completely unrelated note, we brought home a small group of ember tetras about 1.5 weeks ago, and one of them looked very pale/skinny and had one very cloudy eye. I did a bit of searching and thought it might be a physical injury that would improve over time and I'm happy to report that it does indeed seem to be doing better. Reason I mention this is that's exactly as it says in this book Chart 3c.G - Yes - Yes!

I already asked about making that post a " sticky" and Aiken was taking care of that ( if it was possible. ) Every post to that one encouraging it be made a sticky will help the cause.

As for the Ember Tetra's diagnosis, you can see how this flow chart was spot on with it being an abrasion and not something more serious.

Regarding the other fish, that it is effecting only one fish and not them all shows that it's an individual "fish" thing and not a " whole tank" thing. That's important to know. Did you follow through with charts 8a and 8b? If the coloration of the " thing" does not match what is in the charts, it's most likely NOT a worm but from something the fish ate that is of a similar color. Is it still protruding or has it been eliminated?
As for the color change of the internal organs, many fish species can change color to express different stresses or maturity. Rainbowfish are one of these species. This is how you can tell the difference between normal and stress: " The changes can be slow or fast. Slow changes of colour (eg breeding colouration) are generally under the control of hormones and are usually semi-permanent. Rapid colour changes (eg stress responses) are largely under control of the nervous system although hormones may also be involved. " If the stress is breeding colors, nothing can/should be done. Stress issues would be better helped by isolating the effected fish into another tank using new water. If that does not ease the stress, then you know the issue is internal and depending on the probable diagnosis, a proper treatment can be administered.

As for the different treatments in the book, Not all of them apply to all the different conditions. If the chart says to look at treatment method A1, it means that that method is the best course of action. No need to look at other options listed in the book. In some cases you will see " use methods A1, C12 and D6 ( for example), that means all these methods should be used in the treatment. In some cases you will see different dosages for a treatment method. This means to use ONE of the dosage methods for treatment, not all of the different dosages.

Hope this helps.

 

[nlifs]

possibly a swim bladder issue?

Hello again!

Update re. the rainbowfish. Whatever was sticking out of it was no longer there less than 24 hours later ... perhaps it was indeed just 'poop' ...

However, I think the fish is getting worse by the day. It's very lethargic, mostly just floating in middle of the tank with it's head up and tail down, almost completely vertical. Other times, it's floating right above the surface. Seems like it's having a very hard time getting around.

Also, according to 'Bing', that internal organ that appears darker might be the swim bladder. In all of the rest of my fish (forktails and the embers), there's a silvery organ that I can see in their abdomen. But in the fish with the swimming issue, it looks black.

Any idea what might cause the swim bladder to turn black? Could it be an injury of some sort?

There is a swim bladder chart in the book, but I didn't see anything that might be helpful in this situation ...

Perhaps relatedly, the only other male forktail rainbowfish in the tank is extremely hyperactive ... I mean, it's basically not sitting still for even a moment, including trying to fight it's own reflection at teh wall of the aquarium. I wonder if it might have injured in the other male while trying to assert its dominance.

Thoughts?

 

[nlifs]

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that this is a swim bladder issue ... perhaps an obstruction of the pneumatic duct? He's definitely not bloated, though ... quite the opposite, actually. He's very skinny with a darker swim bladder.

Problem is, how do I treat it? I would like to try and fast the fish and then feed peas, but how do I that when I don't have another aquarium to put him into? Should I fast the entire tank and feed them all peas??

 

[nlifs]

Are there any treatment recommendations for a "deflated" swim bladder? I see recommendations (salt, fasting, etc.) for an 'inflated' bladder but would these be appropriate for a deflated bladder as well?

I can move him to a temporary container for a salt/epsom salt bath, if that would do anything.

Open to other suggestions as well!

 

[Andy Sager]

If it's a swim bladder issue, peas are not going to help it. The action of the one male makes it sound like he attacked the other male and injured it. The only safe thing to do is isolate the injured male. Since you have problems getting antibiotics, there's not really anything you can do past keeping the water for the injured fish clean and well oxygenated. Swim bladders can heal over time but it's not usually a quick repair or a guarantee. A fish's swim bladder is the main organ keeping the fish buoyant and able to swim correctly. Because it's apparently damaged, you can't expect the fish to swim " normally". The big thing is for the fish to feel safe so that it starts to feed again. That's not going to happen in the main tank for now. It will always see the other male. The only way it won't is if you put a solid dark divider in the tank.

 

[nlifs]

Hi Andy!

Thank you very much for the suggestion. I don't have an option to get another tank now, unfortunately. What if I were to get a breeding box and put the injured male in there (would be in the same water as the main tank but in a separate box). Would it help if it was more of a "net" that is harder to see through?

 

[nlifs]

What about something like this (hangs on the outside)?

https://www.amazon.ca/Marina-Hang-On-Breeding-Box-Large/dp/B005QRDDJ2/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=1TQADJ45CO44P&keywords=breeding%2Bbox%2Baquarium&qid=1704843611&sprefix=breedi%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-3&th=1&psc=1

 

[Andy Sager]

What about something like this (hangs on the outside)?

https://www.amazon.ca/Marina-Hang-O...3611&sprefix=breedi,aps,120&sr=8-3&th=1&psc=1

Put him in a bucket with an air stone and heater ( if the room temp is cool) and plan on doing small daily water changes for about a week to see if the fish starts to look better or begins eating. Those hang ons are see through so the fish can still see the aggressor. The fish will only feel secure if there are no visible or physical threats to him.

 

[nlifs]

Hello again,

Unfortunately the fish died earlier today ... I didn't think he'd die so quickly from a swim bladder issue...

He was very skinny and lethargic and, near the end, he was desperately trying to lift himself off the gravel without much success. Right at the end (I have a camera near the aquarium), he was twisting and turning and contorting himself very erratically until he finally stopped breathing (I wasn't near the aquarium at the time). Is this consistent with swim bladder or could it have been something else?

I lost two panda corys earlier this week and am concerned that there may be something more insidious hanging around my tank ... actually, one of the remaining pandas is behaving strangely right now ... just surfing the glass at high speeds and zipping around the tank randomly. To be clear, I know that pandas sometimes act strangely but is this not like anything I've seen from this fish in my tank.

Other fish seem OK (and I've had some for over a month), but who knows what might be going on inside them.

Anything to be worried about?

 

[nlifs]

I am at a loss ...

I don't know what to do ...

In addition to the corys acting hyper (hopefully nothing), I noticed another one of the furcata rainbows shaking erratically ... I don't have a better way to describe it than that it looked like an electric shock. Needless to say, I removed the fish to another container where it continued to shiver like this every once in awhile. I'm afraid I'm going to have to euthanize ...

I tried the book ... I found 'whirls and wobbles' or 'staggers' but neither of those sound like what I was seeing.

Any thoughts would, as always, be greatly appreciated.

I will say that fish keeping is proving to be much more stressful than I originally thought. You try to do your best but then you get multiple deaths notwithstanding your best efforts ...

 

[nlifs]

Also, in case it helps, all of the water parameters seem fine, with the possible exception of GH which is, and always has been, very high.

One other thing I noticed today was that one of the ember tetras parked itself in a corner and aggressively chased away any fish that came nearby. One of its primary victims was my sole remaining cardinal tetra, who is now floating under a plant and breathing rapidly...

What a day!

 

[Andy Sager]

When was the last time you did a water change?

 

[nlifs]

Sunday. About 25%.

 

[Andy Sager]

Water parameters are what they are. They can't " seem" fine. Either they are or they aren't fine. What are the exact parameters?
Unfortunately, as I tried explaining before, Panda cories are sketchy. They have a long history of being poor sports in the surviving department. For them, it could go either way whether it was something you did, in the tank, disease or the fish themselves. The aggression thing with the Ember Tetra does not sound too much out of the ordinary. Fish do not always need to be swimming around so when they find some place to call" home", they can defend it to the detriment of the tank. Sadly your Cardinal is alone so if it gets/got picked on, it's no surprise that it's hiding and breathing heavily.

From my perspective, you are suffering from the possibilities of a " community" tank. Not all communities work over the long term. "Species only" tanks can also go through issues but more often than not, it's because the fish want to breed and that means that the TANK is healthy but the community has too many of one gender than the other. It doesn't always mean other fish are going to die because of it but there is that chance. I've seen a pair of Angelfish take over 1/2 of a 100 gallon tank because they were spawning. They kept a dozen other Angels cowering on the other side of the tank. You are not working with a large tank so there is less room for the fish to get away should there be aggression towards them. BUT you need to check your water parameters before we can rule them out as the cause.

Regarding " I will say that fish keeping is proving to be much more stressful than I originally thought. You try to do your best but then you get multiple deaths notwithstanding your best efforts ... " I'm sorry you are having so many problems but this can happen with any living animal. With fish, it's usually less stressful when you match the best fish for your water parameters. Tetras are soft water fish. It doesn't matter what water parameters your store has them in. Many types have been converted over time to be able to live in harder water but harder water shortens their lifespan. That's the nature of the fish specie.
Most all first time fish keepers go through a " learning curve" as to what fish they do better with than others. All you can do is your best, keep the water quality up, the diet as varied and healthy as possible, and the mixes as compatible as possible. Sadly, there is a lot of bad information out there so many suffer during the learning curve. Personal experience in your local can be more reliable info than what you read online or even in books. Don't get me wrong, reading about the fish is also part of the fish keeping hobby and an IMPORTANT part. If you read for example, that this fish type comes from fast flowing streams with low Ph and high water quality, putting them in a tank with no/slow water flow in high Ph and 20 ppm Nitrates is not going to end up good for the fish even tho the parameters fall into the " acceptable" levels. So fish selection is very important.
Another thing I tell people to do is to journal your experiences so that you can refer back to the journal for your successes and failures so you stay away from the fish that were failures and go more for the successes. Here's a post I wish everyone would read regarding water changes. https://advancedaquariumconcepts.co...VrAc2hc4SunYsUebdAG4gZCKrOhI-cWr-7kbreF04MMhQ

 

[nlifs]

Thanks again Andy!

Apologies, I should have put the exact parameters in my earlier messages (which I did measure).

Ammonia = 0 (I didn't see any hint of green ... all yellow)
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate ... I can never really tell but I think it's around 5 (maybe 5-10)
pH is around 7
kH between 120-180 ppm/7-10 degrees
GH over 180 ppm/10.2 degrees ... this is as high as the strip goes

Is there any single potential cause that could lead to the deaths of the two panda corys and the two rainbowfish (one of which was definitely having buoyancy issues and the other which was looking like it got 'shocked')?

 

[nlifs]

Also, as a follow-up, should I look to get 4-5 more cardinals? The tank is more established now so perhaps I'd have more success in keeping them alive (and would hopefully reduce the stress of the one that currently remains in my tank) ...

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks again Andy!

Apologies, I should have put the exact parameters in my earlier messages (which I did measure).

Ammonia = 0 (I didn't see any hint of green ... all yellow)
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate ... I can never really tell but I think it's around 5 (maybe 5-10)
pH is around 7
kH between 120-180 ppm/7-10 degrees
GH over 180 ppm/10.2 degrees ... this is as high as the strip goes

Is there any single potential cause that could lead to the deaths of the two panda corys and the two rainbowfish (one of which was definitely having buoyancy issues and the other which was looking like it got 'shocked')?

Unfortunately, because of the type of Cory, NO, there is not one potential/ probable answer. There are 4 potential answers that all have equal possibilities. Only an autopsy would have narrowed it down if the flow chart in the book didn't come to a concrete diagnosis.
As for the rainbowfish, because they are short lived fish to begin with, their need to breed is stronger than longer lived species. Because the 2 fish had symptoms that are similar to being attacked/ hit AND you have a male that is hyper active, it's very possible that they fell victim to his aggression. Unfortunately, the more common issues with Panda Cories would not have infected the Rainbowfish so fast so their demises happening relatively close to each other is more coincidental than causative IMO.


As for getting more Cardinals, your water parameters ( GH/KH) are NOT good for long term success with Cardinals. I would not be adding more. I would be looking more into fish that need a higher GH only after your rainbows and Ember Tetras have passed on ( so you have some time to look at what's available. ) When you get fish breeding in a tank, there is going to be a natural attrition due to the aggressiveness of the breeders. They need to show the others that THEY are the prime breeders so nobody come close. This can happen by physical force and/ or psychological force.
In some species, even the pair beat each other up prior to spawning.

I found a couple of videos that have some good information about Rainbowfish and aggression and what not to put in with them. :

Listen for WHEN the fish get aggressive.

Here's a video of a pair of males in action. The first 5 minutes of it is relentless ( and notice it happens even in a heavily planted tank) :

And finally, just so you can see it happens with other species as well, check out these smaller Angelfish in a large aquarium:

Key points to listen to are when Aggression is " normal" and when it is of concern.