Starting from scratch 72G Dirted

[ThePlantedMedic]

Day 14

Heres a day 14, two week update.

I have been dosing with 40mL of ammonia quite frequently lately. It seems like the tank is rifling through the Ammonia at an insane rate. The Nitrites I noticed today have come back to a readable level without another water change so I assume they are on the decline. The Nitrates are still there and are lower since the water change 3-4 days ago. I had a concern that they were dropping even though I know it can only be done in a water change. The previous WC must have knocked out a ton of it because it is much much lower than the previous reading.

I added an HOB for a 20G tank on the back to cycle it and have it ready incase I need a quarantine tank which is set up and ready to go. It has a carbon mechanical filter pad for before the ceramic rings. I know that carbon during a cycle is a no-no but I am hoping that because it is so small it won't have an effect.

I have read mixed reviews on dosing any ferts or carbon during a cycle but I figured, why not lets give it a go. Yesterday I did the loading dose of comprehensive and added an excel dose, and today did another excel dose. The plant growth is going well with nothing so I thought I would give it a try and see what happens.

I am getting insane growth out of my jungle val's (multiplying already), amazon sword, bacopa and aromatica. Anubis has a bit of new growth as well, can't wait to hack off those rotten brown leaves.

The ludwigia and crypts look like hell and do not appear to be doing anything but getting worse and worse. There is some very minor small growth on the crypt emerging from the substrate, I assume they are not getting enough light. The jungle fern is maintaining, I removed it from the substrate and placed it on the wood and the roots seems to be taking hold slightly which is good. The moss hasn't done anything and the hornwort I am regretting because I think it looks crappy in there. I will be doing a rescape when I do the 90% water change prior to the addition of the fish.

I am still working on a stocking plan for the tank, I have received one suggestion from fish wrangler and a link from cold canadian which I appreciate greatly.

Here are some pictures.

 

[jfran]

A great app is called AquaPilot. Look into it. I will help you cycle, stock, find LFSs, and gives you diagnosis for any sicknesses you notice. It will automatically put PWCs and filter changes on you calendar. It's pretty cool and not expensive.

As for stocking, if you are interested, check out some of the smaller cichlids, but mind you they are also aggressive. I personally have enjoyed Kenyi cichlids and Firemouth cichlids ( but don't put'em together because you aren't supposed to mix SA with African cichlids).
Do you know what those couple of species you would want to start with then work around are?


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[ThePlantedMedic]

A great app is called AquaPilot. Look into it. I will help you cycle, stock, find LFSs, and gives you diagnosis for any sicknesses you notice. It will automatically put PWCs and filter changes on you calendar. It's pretty cool and not expensive.

As for stocking, if you are interested, check out some of the smaller cichlids, but mind you they are also aggressive. I personally have enjoyed Kenyi cichlids and Firemouth cichlids ( but don't put'em together because you aren't supposed to mix SA with African cichlids).
Do you know what those couple of species you would want to start with then work around are?


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We were thinking about having Angel fish as the centre piece fish. I would also like a tight school of some sort. We also really like shrimp however I know the angelfish may nibble them at a point of aggression. I am worried that with cichlids the substrate/dirt would be stirred up. Fish that are easier to care for to start with as we have never had a tank before other than a single goldfish. Also thank you for pointing me towards that app I will look into it right now!!

 

[jfran]

Yeah. You are right in saying that cichlids will mess with mess with the substrate. They always need to have it their way. It wouldn't be stirred up as much as it would just look messy. They like to dig pits and such.

I am inexperienced with angelfish and think they look pretty cool. They are also aggressive. For a more peaceful and similarly graceful fish there are a number of beautiful gouramis also as an option.

As for tank mates of angelfish I do know that they mustn't be fin nippers (ie tiger barbs or certain danios) due to the extended and honestly tantalizing length of angelfish's fins. Their tank mates do however need to be able to put up with their bouts of aggression. I will see what I can find.


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[jfran]

According to AquaPilot, gouramis are actually recommended as tank mates for angelfish. Along with that are any discus, silver dollars, peaceful community fish that are large enough not to be eaten, and rainbow/red tailed sharks (which eat algae but can also be a bit territorial, but with you size tank you should be fine.)

Look into the angelfish gourami combo and let me know what you think.


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[ThePlantedMedic]

OK Here is my proposed stocking list so far including a clean up crew.. Keep in mind I will keep an API filstar HOB for up to 20L tank hanging incase I need it for a hospital tank at some point...

10x Cherry Shrimp
6x Panda Cory
4x Otocinclus Vittatus
2x SAE
10x Harlequin Rasbora
12x Cardinal Tetra
6x Turquoise Rainbow
4x Dwarf Gourami

Are there any conflicts here? I am between the Amano and Cherry shrimp at the moment... I know this is kind of a Noah's Ark style but I like the different colours and I think the levels are split well with where these fish will reside in the tank? Will update here again when the cycle is done hopefully in the next week or so and post updated pix with the new scape and additions!!

 

[jfran]

Looks pretty compatible to me. Best of luck finishing the setup!!


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[Cold Canadian]

Stock looks ok. Just make sure that when you get the SAE that it is a true SAE and not CAE (Chinese algae eater) the two look very similar and are often missable in stores. The horror story's I've heard of CAE eating the slime and eyes off of other fish, watch out. (Google can help with how to tell the differences.) Dwarf gourami s are related to Betas they can be aggressive towards each other, I would look a bit further into that if I were you.
About the plants. Plants like fish need time to adapt to their new home. Your crypts are doing what many new plants do, they are "melting." They will be fine, crypts are especially finicky when being replanted. What you want to watch for is the new growth, that will tell you everything. As you have said they have new growth that means that they are adjusting well. keep up the good work.


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[ThePlantedMedic]

Thanks for the SAE tip I will definitely google it in store to make sure. About the Gourami's I heard that it is all in the female to male ratio in order to curb the aggressiveness, something about a 1m:2f being the best ratio. I am actively doing some more research there.

The plants are slow going, part of that is my fault also, I have had the lights on for 6.5hrs a day to avoid algae. It is working so far. My cycle ended today, the ammonia is dropping in less than 8 hours and nitrites are gone after 24. I turned the lights up to 10 hours today I hope that helps with the lower leafs that are melting on all plants. I am impatient that's my problem haha. I am going to purchase frets for EI starting next week. Going to start very low as I do not yet have CO2 and we will see how that goes. I will keep you updated! Thanks for reply

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

Moving Day

Heading out in a couple of hours to stock this bad boy!!

Had an odd experience at the LFS last night. There is a little place ma and pop shop that has a great selection of tropical fish. Their tanks are spotless, fish are all healthy and well taken care of. This woman heard I did a fishless cycle and was looking at buying some fish for pick up today and she down right refused to sell them to me. She then turned into the mode of "you are one of those people" and told me I "needed to be set straight". She was convinced that fishless cycling is impossible and every fish I ever purchase will die, fish in cycling is the only possible way to have any aquarium. Every water change I was doing to rid the Nitrates was cycling the tank all over again because the bacteria live in the water... I left there confused because I am new to this hobby and have no experience compared to this woman and yet throughout my time there has told me that pretty much everything I have read online over the last year and work Ive done over the last month is garbage. It is a shame because I really would love to have supported and spent my money at local shop which was close in proximity with good quality products and service. My wife suggest I post here to get some reassurance on the issue and so that I didnt feel so crazy for doing this fishless cycle.

Anyways, the tank is reading at 0 Nitrites after a half dose of ammonia last night at 4pm. I am just finishing up a massive water change to rid myself of the 60ppm Nitrates that are hanging around. If that reads 0 once it runs for a bit I am off to Big Al's to grab some of their livestock to get going here. They have a tank full of Turquoise rainbows, the panda cory's and cardinal tetras I am looking for. They also had 3 SAE's when I called, I am hoping they are still there when I get in!

My wife and I rearranged the plants and have increased the lighting. I am also picking up my 20lbs CO2 bottle on my way home (hoping that gets set up within the next month or so). Will post some pictures of the new inhabitants tonight once they settle in!

 

[fish wrangler]

That lfs lady is nutty, if you do a fish in cycle you will still have to do water changes. If you don't do water changes you'll loose fish and buy more from the lfs, they make more money in the end.
Unfortunately some of the closer lfs have bad advice, and I'm in the same as you seem to be.
Good luck with stocking, and just remember to test your levels right after you add fish to make sure things are good.

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[jfran]

First off: the bacteria do NOT live in the water but in the filter (typically filters have a designated place), gravel, and other such items.

Second: fish-less cycles are a real thing.

Third: water changes are completely necessary for the well being of the fish.

That lady doesn't know diddly squat, ok? It is really a shame when people act and reprimand others like they know everything but are actually wrong. I feel for you man! You are doing great!


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[ThePlantedMedic]

Half Stocked

So today's purchase consisted of:
9 Red Phantom Tetra
3 SAE
4 Otto
6 Panda Cory
3 Assassin Snail
2 Corkscrew Val

The guy at Big Al's was good. They just got a huge shipment so the rainbows are under quarantine and they haven't had any Harlequin Rasbora in for a while. I will go back to that crappy LFS if Big Al's can't get any in, hopefully she won't refuse me again haha. We did the rescape with the huge water change yesterday. This morning I noted the Nitrates to still be super high, they were off the chart before the first water change, so I did another 90% one today and got them down to around 10ppm. I will keep a close eye, the guy said the Panda's are the most sensitive and will notice a change in them if it gets too much over 20ppm. I will be doing a water test every other day to keep an eye on things. I will be going back for the turquoise rainbow's on Sunday.

One change I made after looking around today is going back to the idea of Anglefish. I am going to scrap the Danio idea and drop the shrimp. I have a 5G from a relative I wanted to turn into a quarantine tank however I may plant it and do shrimp only, we will see down the road I guess.

Also you will notice in the pictures that I got myself the CO2 tank, thats Romeo our boxer sniffing it out. It was an uncanny deal at $100 for the 20lbs bottle. To put that in perspective here where I am a 5lbs is $140 and a 10lbs is around $180. It should last a couple years without a fill!! I am going to get the regulator down the road a bit, going to see how the fishies do in their current environment before I start pumping more into it!

Thanks for the replies and reassurance that things are going OK and not to listen to the crap I caught at the LFS, some people are ignorant. Glad I found a good dude at one of the bigger chains to bounce ideas off of.

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

Well we lost a soldier last night at some point, one of my otto's kicked the bucket, poor dude. The others are looking good, water levels are good also.

Today I started the hunt for a CO2 regulator set up. I have looked at the ones from milwaukee and GLA ($$$$$$$$). Many people suggested building one, if i knew what the hell I was doing I would venture down that path. The planted tank forum suggested some guy named Alan Le, I contacted him to see what the deal is, everyone over there talks about the amazing quality of his product. I am not sure how I feel about the pH controllers or drop checkers or what, also undecided about inline atomizers or a diffuser. Time will tell I guess! Adding more fish this weekend, will post something then!

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

Dead Otto's

My Otto's are dying one each day since I put them in. I can't figure this out. They guy at the store said the pandas are the most sensitive and will tell me if there is a water problem first. All parameters that I can test are in check and temp is holding steadily at 78. The one from today I noticed swimming around earlier with a red spot near its tail, blood coloured. It was still there when I scooped him off the floor of the tank. They were small when I bought them but all the fish are, no signs of harassment either, I don't get it. Today's was the only one so far to not die during the night. Every other fish in there seems to be enjoying itself, they are all eating however do not come to the surface, they wait for the food to enter the water column and the shrimp pellets were going uneaten until the Angels were added.

I added two Angelfish yesterday, black and white so obviously the gouramis are out of the question now... Just need to grab the rainbow's and I am going to add a couple more tetras to the group also.

Any suggestions to replace the otto's to work on the clean up crew? Maybe I should try some bigger ones? Don't want a pleco unless I can find a dwarf one, is there such a thing? Let me know what you think. Thanks.

PS Can anyone tell me why the orientation on my pictures is messed up? They're all posting upside down and sideways but are normal on my Mac, I can't see any orientation/rotation option before I post.

 

[Nils]

Ok, here are some answers

1 - 99% of ottos are wild caught. This means they are super sensitive and don't do good in lots of peoples tanks. They don't adapt well to changes either (i.e moving from tank to tank) I'm really sorry almost all died on you, but I wouldn't replace them

2 - With angels, you can't really have shrimp. The shrimp will just end up being an expensive snack.

3 - You don't need a clean up crew. Another myth told by LFS's to make $$$$. Amano shrimp get a bit bigger and clean up algae pretty well if that's what you're looking for.

Anyway, nice tank, it looks good!

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

Ok, here are some answers

1 - 99% of ottos are wild caught. This means they are super sensitive and don't do good in lots of peoples tanks. They don't adapt well to changes either (i.e moving from tank to tank) I'm really sorry almost all died on you, but I wouldn't replace them

2 - With angels, you can't really have shrimp. The shrimp will just end up being an expensive snack.

3 - You don't need a clean up crew. Another myth told by LFS's to make $$$$. Amano shrimp get a bit bigger and clean up algae pretty well if that's what you're looking for.

Anyway, nice tank, it looks good!

Thanks for the reply, I scrapped the shrimp idea with the addition of the Angels and changed from cardinals to Red Phantom Tetra's due to the expensive snack thing haha. I didn't know that about the otto's, makes sense as to why they're super cheap at the pet store. I will find something else to add in place of them, thanks!

 

[fish wrangler]

Wait 6 months and then try otos again. They need a well established tank due to the build up of biofilm.

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[ArsenalOfColor]

Hi there, I'm a fellow noob to aquariums as well though have researched thoroughly and I'm going to come along and watch your tank develop, you have a very nice scape and wonderful tank that could turn out quite gorgeous if you're patient with it I think.

Heres a day 14, two week update.

I have been dosing with 40mL of ammonia quite frequently lately. It seems like the tank is rifling through the Ammonia at an insane rate. The Nitrites I noticed today have come back to a readable level without another water change so I assume they are on the decline. The Nitrates are still there and are lower since the water change 3-4 days ago. I had a concern that they were dropping even though I know it can only be done in a water change. The previous WC must have knocked out a ton of it because it is much much lower than the previous reading.

Your dirt addition is making me think in this tank. What was the reason to drop a 14lb bag in? I figured you go natural dirt or ferts not both. And generally when dropping in soil that's not mineralized the ammonia leeching will be enough to cycle the tank, but will also generally cause algae bloom if the light isn't controlled and excel isn't added. Seems like you don't have that problem one bit, maybe its the high number of plants to low amount of soil.

I have read mixed reviews on dosing any ferts or carbon during a cycle but I figured, why not lets give it a go. Yesterday I did the loading dose of comprehensive and added an excel dose, and today did another excel dose. The plant growth is going well with nothing so I thought I would give it a try and see what happens.

Carbon should be fine, ferts should be too but not 100% sure there. Excel will help the plants develop and avoid algae, consider a 4 on 3 off 4 on light schedule plants will love you for it, especially once the tank is stocked and the stock is adding CO2 in the off hours.

The ludwigia and crypts look like hell and do not appear to be doing anything but getting worse and worse. There is some very minor small growth on the crypt emerging from the substrate, I assume they are not getting enough light. The jungle fern is maintaining, I removed it from the substrate and placed it on the wood and the roots seems to be taking hold slightly which is good. The moss hasn't done anything and the hornwort I am regretting because I think it looks crappy in there. I will be doing a rescape when I do the 90% water change prior to the addition of the fish.

Crypts also grow incredibly incredibly slow depending on the type. If you don't like the look of the hortwort just bunch it all up in a corner together in a spot in the back, its an alright background plant even if you don't like the look of it too much it's great for helping clean the water.

Had an odd experience at the LFS last night. There is a little place ma and pop shop that has a great selection of tropical fish. Their tanks are spotless, fish are all healthy and well taken care of. This woman heard I did a fishless cycle and was looking at buying some fish for pick up today and she down right refused to sell them to me. She then turned into the mode of "you are one of those people" and told me I "needed to be set straight". She was convinced that fishless cycling is impossible and every fish I ever purchase will die, fish in cycling is the only possible way to have any aquarium. Every water change I was doing to rid the Nitrates was cycling the tank all over again because the bacteria live in the water... I left there confused because I am new to this hobby and have no experience compared to this woman and yet throughout my time there has told me that pretty much everything I have read online over the last year and work Ive done over the last month is garbage. It is a shame because I really would love to have supported and spent my money at local shop which was close in proximity with good quality products and service. My wife suggest I post here to get some reassurance on the issue and so that I didnt feel so crazy for doing this fishless cycle.

One thing I've learned in my massive amount of research the last few months is there's always someone who claims one thing and another who claims that will kill every fish you own. Some things work great for some that don't work as well for others; to each, their own. You did the best thing for your fish and for you; and on top of all of that what is ABSOLUTELY scientifically proven to be the case, fishless cycling works just fine. Keep your bacteria alive with ammo, which honestly you don't need to worry too much about with the soil, and you can add fish when you are cycled. I'd go back to that store ask politely to purchase what you would like to purchase, if she argues explain that you are sure your tank is cycled and the water tests you've taken over the course of weeks prove it.

Anyways, the tank is reading at 0 Nitrites after a half dose of ammonia last night at 4pm. I am just finishing up a massive water change to rid myself of the 60ppm Nitrates that are hanging around. If that reads 0 once it runs for a bit I am off to Big Al's to grab some of their livestock to get going here. They have a tank full of Turquoise rainbows, the panda cory's and cardinal tetras I am looking for. They also had 3 SAE's when I called, I am hoping they are still there when I get in!

My wife and I rearranged the plants and have increased the lighting. I am also picking up my 20lbs CO2 bottle on my way home (hoping that gets set up within the next month or so). Will post some pictures of the new inhabitants tonight once they settle in!

While you shouldn't bother with shrimp in this tank, 10 won't last long at all in 72 gallons with any kind of predation, I'd encourage you to give the 10g planted shrimp tank a shot for sure makes a great QT and grows fancy snacks for your main tank. If you have a QT get it running and just toss some moss in there near a window or with daylight cfls on it at 0.5-1 watt per gallon. The shrimp will multiple quickly in a few months and when you have say 50+ in a 10 or 20 gallon tank you can make the move and put them in your display tank. This way the tank be more grown in and the shrimp will have better places to hide. Also the shrimp can keep your QT cycled and clean and constantly be producing replacements for when things in your display tank get snacky!


Sorry to hear about your Otos. I got 10 from a supplier on aquabid and they looked great though 1 came in dead, lost 3 more so far, they aren't hardy at all even though they can be tank bred most aren't. I stupidly grabbed 10 more from a LFS and they all look horrible pretty sure I'm gonna lose them all unfortunately, hoping QT does the trick though.

OH and look up Diana Walstad and her book on naturally planted tanks, I think you could get a lot of information and ideas from her work!

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

Hi there, I'm a fellow noob to aquariums as well though have researched thoroughly and I'm going to come along and watch your tank develop, you have a very nice scape and wonderful tank that could turn out quite gorgeous if you're patient with it I think.

Hey and thanks for posting and the comments on the tank!

-The dirt substrate that I put in and capped is more of an experiment than anything, not a ton of people had information on it so I figured I would give it a go, I got the organic potting mix and will see how it goes down there. I have had no evidence of an algae outbreak. I have only been dosing trace and excel currently. I may venture down the EI dosing later once I have some more experience with this. The next big step is CO2.

-My AquaticLife light does not do cycling and I cant use a timer because when it gets unplugged and back in again it goes to off setting, terrible I know. So for now I am running it for 11 hours, I only did it for 6 while cycling to avoid algae blooms in case of ammonia leaching from the substrate. Very little algae through all of this, maybe a bit of brown towards the end but I also didnt do many water changes while it cycled, I didnt need to...

-I have a new found patience for the Crypt, someone earlier commented and told me to chill out and wait for it haha, there is some new growth there so thats good!

-The tank is totally cycled now and I did go back and just buy what I wanted and left, she again told me that Nitrates magically vanish and not to lose the water cuz of the water change but I just smiled, paid and walked out haha. That will be the last time I go in there.

-Shrimp is on hold for now, I do really want them so I will be setting up the QT tank that I currently have with a solid substrate, plants, a clip on LED, the HOB and will watch them grow. I am unsure if/when I will add them. I may also pop that into my sons room when he gets a bit older as a starter... Oh the possibilities haha.

-The one last otto is still in there, we see him once the lights go off he likes the surfaces we have for him in there it seems, I didnt realize that they were so sketchy like that, I never read that about them when I was researching.. Lesson learned..

-I have read a bit of Diana's book but not the whole thing yet, I will get through it, I know she is lower tech which is the way I thought I was going but that light and CO2 system just called my name haha.

Do you have a journal started for your tanks at all? Thanks for popping in!