Strange clown behaviour

[havefun]

Thanks to advice from steve-s my 2 clowns are almost fully recovered from the white growths on them. However now I think there is another problem.
Last Friday (11/4/05) was the last day I've seen them eat. They always went completely nuts at feeding time. We went out of town for the weekend and when we got back both of them were hovering at the very bottom of the tank and not straying more than an inch or so from the same spot. I've tried every kind of food I have (flake, pellet, formula 1 & 2, brine and blender mush), they make no attempt to eat at all. One looks like he is maybe breathing heavier than normal.

Water params:

ammonia 0
trite 0
trate 0
ph 8.1
sg 1.0235

Tank has been up since last march. These are the only 2 fish I have. The only other change in the tank was that a curly que anemone moved into an area they used to swim.

Any ideas? Should I be concerned?

TIA

Steve

 

[DragonForce]

This is a classic sign of some kind of disease. I would QT the fish and monitor them. Look at their gills, are they swollen? any slime on the fish? weird colored poop?

 

[havefun]

The gills don't look swollen and I don't see any slime. I did see some white poop from one of them.

I have a QT setup and cycled but unless I know what the disease is and how to treat it I think I'm better off keeping them in the main arn't I? Keep in mind I have no other fish.

 

[steve-s]

I did see some white poop from one of them..

How did you go about raising the salinity/how quickly once the hypo was done?

Does the fish's belly appear plump or sunken? Any additional symptoms no matter how slight? Overall appearance?

Cheers
Steve

 

[havefun]

How did you go about raising the salinity/how quickly once the hypo was done?

Hmmm, I didn't do hypo. If your referring to the white clumps they had before, you reccommended vitamins and higer than normal water quality which seemed to take care of it.

Does the fish's belly appear plump or sunken? Any additional symptoms no matter how slight? Overall appearance?

Well after observing them *very* closely last night for a couple hours this is what I saw... (two clowns, one is slightly larger than the other)

The larger one has/had a swollen area right next to his "exit" hole - like he was constipated. However, he did start pooping (tanish color) and as he did he started to swim around a little more (staying within a few inches of his original spot though). Before last night he never raised off the sandbed more than 1/4 of an inch or so but last night he swam up an inch or two. He used to pick on the smaller clown but I have not seen him do that since they stopped eating. Also, just once, he scratched his side on the sandbed (purposely dove sideways into it). I hope thats not a sure sign of ich? I don't see any on him.
His two bottom fins (not sure what they're called) are always up tight against his belly - he used to have them extended I think.

The smaller clown is completely normal looking - belly, breathing, everything. He did swim a couple feet away once but returned back - right next to the larger clown. He looks at the food like he wants to eat but doesn't. It's almost like he is being so loyal to the larger clown that he refuses to leave him for anything.

Overall appearance of both of them looks fine, same color (larger one is a little darker than the smaller), no slime, no scales sticking out etc.

I did not have a chance to check on them yet today.

Does that give you anymore clues?

TIA
Steve

 

[havefun]

Well I just got home and the larger one was no where to be found. I found a pile of hermits (6) and snails (7). The are finishing him off - not much left, his head and spine is all that remains. I thought I had a breakthrough last night when he started to poop.

The smaller one is starting to venture out more but still not eating.

Man, I'm really starting to get bummed. I have been taking things VERY slowly (tank has been up since last march) but can't seem to get anywhere. My first 3 fish were eaten by my CBS (which I no longer have) and now these clowns are sick/dead.
I have an assortment of hitchhiker crabs, snails, worms, shrimp, urchins, and a curly que anomone, etc all doing fine. What gives with my fish luck? Should I start with some other spieces? I thought clowns were fairly hardy? Should I just give up on fish and have corals only (after a lighting upgrade)? Or just give up all together and sell the tank?

Steve

 

[havefun]

Oh great, now the remaining clown looks like he is starting to swell at his pooh hole...

 

[steve-s]

Sorry for your loss

Just to clarify, in your first post you noted the feces where white and the later tanish in color??? The color of the food coming out should be relatively close to the color going in so it's important to note what you are feeding to get an accurate picture of what's going on.

So far it sounds like an internal bacterial infection. Have the fish looked normal in gurth up to now, no sunken belly or looking emaciated?

Do you have a cycled QT?

Sorry about the salinity question, got you confused with Zenn.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Sorry, also forgot to ask...

What do you normally feed, how long have you had this batch of food and how is it stored?

Cheers
Steve

 

[havefun]

...feces where white and the later tanish in color???

To be honest when I said it was white, I didn't make it a point to be looking at the color - that is just what I thought I remembered seeing. I do know for a fact the tanish color though.

The color of the food coming out should be relatively close to the color going in so it's important to note what you are feeding

The last feeding they ate was my blender mush. It was my first batch so it's entirely possible that I messed it up. I don't have that great of a selection to choose from, but in it I have cod, scallops, shrimp and broccoli - all raw. It is pretty much the same color as the feces.

Have the fish looked normal in gurth up to now, no sunken belly or looking emaciated?

They looked fine to me, nothing obvious. When I purchased them they were in a 10g or 20g tank with a lot more clowns (20 or 30 maybe).

Do you have a cycled QT?

Yes.

Sorry about the salinity question, got you confused with Zenn.

No problem, I don't know how you keep all of us straight. I'd be messing up like that all the time.

What do you normally feed, how long have you had this batch of food and how is it stored?

Normally I feed every other day but in trying to boost their immune system I was feeding every day. Rotating SFB brine, formula's 1 & 2 and my mush. They were just starting to take to flake.

The formulas were frozen - I thawed all the cubes in sw, rinsed well, and refroze in a baggie.
The SFB brine is still in cubes but I intend to do the same as above.
My mush is less than a month old - frozen.

If I've missed something let me know.

Thanks for the help,
Steve

 

[ashearier]

What do you normally feed, how long have you had this batch of food and how is it stored?

What is the shelf life of frozen food and what is the best means for storage?

 

[havefun]

Whoohooo!!!! My little guy is eating and swimming around tonight

He no longer has a buldge by his bottom. All of his fins are fully extended, not clamped close to his body. That is a good sign isn't it?

 

[steve-s]

The formulas were frozen - I thawed all the cubes in sw, rinsed well, and refroze in a baggie.

The food was thawed and then refrozen? Thawed in the fridge or room temp? Curious why you do this?

My mush is less than a month old - frozen.

Were the ingredients frozen or fresh, how was the mixture prepared?

I am fairly certain it's bacterial and probabley a result of the food thawing/refreezing process. I would toss any of the foods that you have done this with.

He no longer has a buldge by his bottom. All of his fins are fully extended, not clamped close to his body. That is a good sign isn't it?

Most definately a good sign but be sure to watch for any physical sign of reccuring.

If the problem comes back, transfer the clown to the QT (use a plastic container, no net if possible) and treat with Maracyn II at 20 mg/10 gal added daily for 10 days. Make sure you do at least a 25% water change before each new dose to increase effectiveness. I would also lower the salinity to hypo conditions to improve the med effectiveness and help rekindle the feeding response. Lowered salinity will mean less energy expended on osmotic balance and more energy spent on healing.

Be sure to carefully monitor pH and alk throughout and don't hesitate to buffer as needed. Buffering the RO water used for the salinity drop will help minimize pH drops.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

What do you normally feed, how long have you had this batch of food and how is it stored?

What is the shelf life of frozen food and what is the best means for storage?

Shelf life will generally be a few months (3-4). Never buy foods that look freezer burned or dried out at all. Store foods in the back of the freezer so they are not affected by the opening and closing of the door. Non frozen foods such as flake/pellet/dried should be stored in the fridge.

Best rule of thumb is not t buy large quantities. Only what can be consumed in a 2-3 month time frame. Even though smaller amounts may be more exspensive, they run less risk of bacterial contamination due to faster use.

Cheers
Steve

 

[havefun]

Thawed in the fridge or room temp? Curious why you do this?

I filled a container with ro water and let the cubes melt in it. Then rinsed with ro and added sw and refroze. The whole process probably only took 10 minutes or so.
As for the reason why, I thought I remembered reading on here that frozen food is very high in phosphates (or maybe something else) and that it was a good idea to do the above. Maybe not?

Were the ingredients frozen or fresh, how was the mixture prepared?

Fresh. I just put it all in a blender (straight from the fridge) and added sw. Then I put it in baggies and froze.
When I feed I thaw a small chunk in a cup of sw then pour into the tank small amounts of that water.

Sheesh, now I'm afraid to feed. I felt bad before but now kowing it was probably my fault I feel even worse

 

[steve-s]

Hard to say on your thawed/refrozen foods whether or not it could be the cause. More often, clown intestinal problems are from the foods fed or types of food used. Personally I would toss the cubes you've done this with already unless they where thawed in the fridge (preferabley covered). Bacteria doesn't take much time at all to get a foothold depending on surrounding surfaces and food acids present. Placing back in the freezer does not kill the bacteria either, simpley retards their reproduction.

As for the mush, as long as you are sure none of the ingredients where off or had mal odors, it should be okay. Again though, be sure foods are thawed in the fridge as much as possible to reduce bacterial growth. Might seem like overkill but a simple and easy precaution on something you cannot control otherwise.

As far as what you've read on the removal of phosphorus, yes to a point in will definately help. I would suggest however you only thaw what can be fed at that particular feeding. Don't do the whole batch. If using RO water, be sure to add a liquid vitamin afterwards as the RO will strip valuable nutrient as well. Personally I use tank water since it will not strip nearly as much. If using tank water, it's equally important only to thaw as much as can be used that day.

Cheers
Steve