Stuck, some nitrates and no nitrites

[reversemarcosis]

I'm new to AA. Unfortunately I fell under the bacteria in a bottle pyramid scheme. Unfortunately, I was given quite a few fish the day I set up my tank as a starter gift so I actually haven't bought a single fish yet. I know, this is horrible, I'm trying to keep all the fish alive cause I really like them alot, but am at a loss. There have been some casualties already, but the rest seem relatively happy. On the plus side, I have gotten addicted to fish keeping. I love doing the water changes and can stare at the tank forever. I want to pursue the hobby further, but I'm stuck.

I have a 50gal tank and I'm currently stocking.

1x Rainbow Shark
5x Rosy Barbs (one is sick)
1x GSP (in the process of getting another tank to put him in, he was a gift and is starting to harass other fish and start a salt or brackish tank in the meantime)
6x Flame Tetras
3x Black Mollies (2x Harp Tailed)
1x Black Ghost Knifefish

The tank is going on its THIRD week. I got an API testing Kit and I'm currently testing

NH3 between .5ppm and 1ppm (it kills me that the fish are being exposed to so much NH3)
Nitrites at 0ppm
Nitrates between 10ppm to 20ppm

I'm attributing this to the Tetra bacteria in a bottle recommended at the pet store. Im constantly doing PWC to lower the ammonia level, but there seems to be little to no progress. Will ordering an active sponge help? Will I kill the fish? What can I do? I really care about the fish and have grown attached to the rainbow shark, the GSP, and the Knifefish in particular. What can I do? The petstore guy said that the bacteria in a bottle was an instant cycler, FALSE! Help!

 

[eco23]

Hi reversemarcosis, welcome to the site

I already said some of this in the other thread...but to get the party started, I'll put a slightly expanded version of it here.

The key is going to be water changes. Lots and lots and lots of water changes. Do whatever you must to keep the ammonia below .25. You may have to do several pwc's per day to accomplish this...but it's necessary to keep your fish from suffering. A big bottle of Seahem Prime will help as well to temporarily detoxify the ammo and no2 to buy you time between water changes.

Good move re-homing the puffer, in fact, try to return as many as possible because unless you have a very large tank...you have a very heavy bio-load you're trying to cycle with.

Here's the best guide there is on fish-in cycling-
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/artic...g-but-I-already-have-fish-What-now/Page2.html

We'll be happy to help and keep up with your progress

 

[eco23]

Also, search for established media. Talk to friends, lfs's that have healthy tanks...anywhere. The more media you can get the better. Especially any piece of material from the filter is best...but anything will help.

There are seeded sponges available online that will help, but with the fish you have there is no quick fix (except for a ton of established filter media). At least you get a good workout hauling buckets for a while

For a 50 gallon, buying a Python or Aqueon water changer could be life saving...metaphorically and literally.

 

[reversemarcosis]

Thanks so much, I have posted a facebook announcement looking for more media among my friends. Also, I have been doing 25% PWC and 50% PWC. I have been doing them daily, but I don't know how much is the right amount. Any suggestions as to how much I should change?

 

[eco23]

Thanks so much, I have posted a facebook announcement looking for more media among my friends. Also, I have been doing 25% PWC and 50% PWC. I have been doing them daily, but I don't know how much is the right amount. Any suggestions as to how much I should change?

The amount of water you change and how frequently you do it should be dictated by your test kit...not by a clock. Anytime the ammo or no2 climb to ~.25, it's time to break out the bucket. Since you have a heavy bio-load (lots of fish), it may require more than one pwc per day in your case.

There's no such thing as too many pwc's as long as you are dechlorinating (pick up some Prime if you can), and match temps of the water. Don't be afraid to do a 75% pwc, or back to back to back changes if needed.

You can get your fish through it...you'll just need to stay diligent and committed.

You've also learned rule #1 of fish keeping...don't listen to the guy at the pet store in 99.9% of situations.

 

[reversemarcosis]

Did a test this morning.

NH3 - between .25ppm and 50ppm
NO2 - 0
NO3 - between 10ppm and 20ppm

No progress. Off to another PWC and hunting down established media at LFS. Is it safe to say that the cycle has stalled? There's no change for the last week even though I started the thread yesterday.

On the bright side, fish are looking healthy still even the Rosy Barb that was sick came up to eat today.

 

[eco23]

Did a test this morning.

NH3 - between .25ppm and 50ppm
NO2 - 0
NO3 - between 10ppm and 20ppm

No progress. Off to another PWC and hunting down established media at LFS. Is it safe to say that the cycle has stalled? There's no change for the last week even though I started the thread yesterday.

On the bright side, fish are looking healthy still even the Rosy Barb that was sick came up to eat today.

I wouldn't call it stalled, it can just take a long time to do a fish in cycle.

You're doing absolutely the right things doing the water changes and hunting down some established media. If you find media, make sure it is from a healthy tank because any nasties in that tank can be transferred to yours.

P.S.- Don't let the lfs talk you into a bottle of ANYTHING unless it's more Prime. They'll also tell you not to do pwc's... no pwc's = dead fish :-(

 

[librarygirl]

I'm no expert but I wouldn't say it's stalled. As Eco said you have a very heavy bioload for that tank. If you can rehome some of those fish it will help keep your ammonia levels down. If your ammonia is .5 now you should probably do at least another 50% pwc to get it down to 0.25 at most, less would be better. Cycling with fish can take up to a few months because of the water changes but you need to do them to keep the fish alive. Just keep doing what you're doing, eventually the tank will cycle.

 

[reversemarcosis]

Is there a minimum time that the established medium can be left out? I just need to plan my day well. Can the bacteria survive a couple of hours out of the water? Does anyone know?

 

[eco23]

Is there a minimum time that the established medium can be left out? I just need to plan my day well. Can the bacteria survive a couple of hours out of the water? Does anyone know?

Not out of water. If it dries, it dies. If you keep it wet in a bag (like you were bringing home a fish) and don't expose it to extreme temps it'll be fine.

 

[reversemarcosis]

I went to my LFS and bought some live plants which were with fish in it. I also for the kid to give me a 3 week old filter from a 100 gallon tank which had some grown clown loaches, some cichlids and a couple of turtles. I figured since there were clown loaches in healthy and happy itd be good. The tank has been running for years.

Should I stick a chunk in my filter? I bought replacement cartridges too shod I change them also?

 

[reversemarcosis]

Sorry for my weird typing and English but I'm typing at stop lights with my iPhone

 

[eco23]

Never, ever, ever, ever change cartridges until they are literally falling apart. They're were the vast majority of your beneficial bacteria live.

Awesome news on the filter pad! I'd jam it in as the first thing the water contacts, with the media that's already there pressed right up against it as the second. That will help tremendously!

 

[reversemarcosis]

The (hopefully) established filter pad is in the filter. I put some new plants in as well in the tank. Let's hope for the best. Testing to follow tomorrow or monday. (Busy weekend)

Just as an FYI. I called Tetra and asked them why I was getting the readings I was getting. The guy said that the product is engineered to keep NH3 levels at 1ppm or lower. That's actually, what I've been reading.
Im a chemist, not a microbiologist, so Im thinking Im probably having the bacteria in a bottle turn x-1ppm of the NH3 is all the way to Nitrates, but it's engineered so that some ammonia remains so that the tank can still cycle on its own (the rep said that the tank should fully cycle after 4 weeks avg time). The problem with this is that 1ppm of NH3 is still harmful to fish and they say that you can stock fish right away .

I'm still not happy with the product, and sticking to committing to doing the proper cycle. Also, I think the bacteria are engineered to not fully convert because most of the products require you to continue to add bacteria periodically.

I dunno, just a theory. I haven't thought much about it, but in chemical reaction terms there's too much of 1 reactant and not enough of limiting reagent. I dunno, it's late and Im blabbing. Will keep posted on water tests.

 

[eco23]

Good for you . You're doing the research, asking the questions and making the effort to provide the best home for your fish.

I have a lot to say on the pros / cons of "instant cycling" products, but since it's 12:30am, and my fingers will fall off if I do anymore typing today...I'll save it for later. To put it simply though...the one you used is actually the most respected. It is the only one I've ever heard of research done on that contains actual nitrifying bacteria (I have no idea how they survive, but I'm not a microbiologist or a chemist). The VAST majority (if not all) of the others contain different types of bacteria that will potentially assist with nitrification (sometimes), but do not establish a natural, stable bio-filter (they can be very short lived) and there is also some discussion whether these "fill-in" bacterias will outcompete the actual nitrifying bacteria for their food source (ammonia) which would prevent them from ever fully colonizing...hence the need to replace the "false" bacteria during each pwc or be exposed to potential bio-filter crashes. I've never heard a Tetra rep state a 4 week cycle period, nor the info it handles to 1ppm and below. Good research and info...I guess that's part of being a responsible scientist...and fish keeper

 

[reversemarcosis]

Did a test today and... I think... good news?

NH3 between 0ppm and .25ppm
NO2 at 0ppm
NO3 between 10ppm and 20ppm (i can never tell)

So I'm pretty sure my ammonia went down. At a point in time the test looked like it was at zero. However there's still no Nitrites, I guess that might be because of the bacteria in a bottle. My Nitrate levels are still the same also, and I'm not sure what that means. If my ammonia level did indeed go down then the NO3 might be closer to 20ppm and it used to be closer to 10ppm. In any case, I think that the used filter pad I got at the LFS for free came in handy.

I'm debating whether or not to do a PWC. I guess it couldn't hurt right? Im gonna attach some pictures of the test results. (I think the NH3 looks darker in real life, but that could've just been a shadow). Let me know what you think.

 

[jetajockey]

. The problem with this is that 1ppm of NH3 is still harmful to fish and they say that you can stock fish right away .

1ppm of nh3 is harmful to fish, but it's extremely unlikely you have 1ppm of nh3 in your tank. The levels of nh3 and nh+4 depend on ph/temperature. test kits read in total ammonia, so you aren't getting an accurate reading of exactly how much of the harmful nh3 is in there.

I'm still not happy with the product, and sticking to committing to doing the proper cycle. Also, I think the bacteria are engineered to not fully convert because most of the products require you to continue to add bacteria periodically.

Safestart is designed to be used once, it doesn't have repeat dosage instructions like stability, cycle, stresszyme.

 

[chasgood]

Sounds like everyone has helped you get a handle on things. I would just add that you test the tap water for nitrates. It seems to early for 10 to 20ppm levels unless its coming from the tap.
With ammonia going down nitrites will be going up soon. Check if all tankmates can tolerate salt. If so add 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5gl of water. This will help protect the gills during the high nitrite phase of cycling.

Good luck

 

[reversemarcosis]

thanks Jeta. You are right about Safestart. I was looking at a different product when I wrote that.

I'm not sure about the inaccurate reading though. You are right in that the test is reading total ammonia nitrogen (TAN) which includes ammonia and ammonium (NH3 and NH4+), but my water is alkaline (around pH 8) and the temperature is reasonably low, therefore most of the ammonia is going to be unionized (NH3) rather than ionized (NH4)+. Ionized would be great cause I think it's not as bad for fish. There is a way to calculate the ammonia to ammonium ratio if I remember correctly, if anyone is interested in that I can find it somewhere.

In any case, chances are that due to my water parameters most ammonia in my tank is unionized and I guess I'd rather have no ammonia at all whether NH3 or NH4+. A cycled tank should have no NH3 or NH4+. The bacteria should be able to nitrify both.

I guess I wish my water was more acidic so it would be mostly ammonium, but I'm not about about screw with the pH. It's such a finicky thing

 

[reversemarcosis]

Sounds like everyone has helped you get a handle on things. I would just add that you test the tap water for nitrates. It seems to early for 10 to 20ppm levels unless its coming from the tap.
With ammonia going down nitrites will be going up soon. Check if all tankmates can tolerate salt. If so add 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5gl of water. This will help protect the gills during the high nitrite phase of cycling.

Good luck

I can't believe I didn't think of that in the first place thanks chasgood. I tested the tap water and indeed it had nitrates around the same. Therefore I guess I can hope to see some purple in the next couple of days hopefully. The ammonia is down though so I guess that's good, the question is where is it going? hahaha. I guess time will tell.