The argument of tank size.

[Dallascowboys16]

This "Works" but does it seem right?

Thats how I feel about it. Many Fish in the wild may seem to hang around the same spot but they do have a little bit of space to move as they please. I personally enjoy the look of a lightly stocked tank so its not really a problem for me but I honestly think that it is a less stressful way for them to live. Can I prove it? No, not really. But I do think there is some anecdotal evidence that this is the case.

 

[Caliban07]

If i didnt overfeed my tank i doubt it would get that high. However, using my fert method I have to do a 50% weekly water change on my main tank anyways. Regardless, my fish have tolerated the 50% changes very very well.

I honestly prefer to learn from other peoples mistakes before making my own. It takes a keen eye and a lot of knowledge to ynderstand when something is wrong with your fish. While we may see a fish hiding in a corner and think "uh oh, something is wrong" someone new to the hobby is gonna wonder "is that what they usually do?"

I agree. It's taken a long time and a lot of learning and experiencing to get to where I am today. I've changed my opinions and philosophy's much throughout that time. I feel like I am in a better position to make the decisions I am doing today and a feel that with my understocked, lightly fed, no dosing regimen my fish and myself are much happier. Things remain constant. There are so many things going on in a tank that has the potential to harm fish. We are doomed no matter which approach we take haha.


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[Andy Sager]

I agree. It's taken a long time and a lot of learning and experiencing to get to where I am today. I've changed my opinions and philosophy's much throughout that time. I feel like I am in a better position to make the decisions I am doing today and a feel that with my understocked, lightly fed, no dosing regimen my fish and myself are much happier. Things remain constant. There are so many things going on in a tank that has the potential to harm fish. We are doomed no matter which approach we take haha.


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Welcome to the old way of doing things Consistency was the key word. We found that fish really didn't like change and reacted poorly to it. Maybe that's why our poorer technology worked? It wasn't being over taxed.
The bottom line is that fish keeping is supposed to be an enjoyment, not a job. Everybody's definition of enjoyment differs so there are always going to be different levels of how things are or should be done.

On another note, Just wait until you get to my years of experience. These will be the "Good ol' days " for you.

 

[Caliban07]

Welcome to the old way of doing things Consistency was the key word. We found that fish really didn't like change and reacted poorly to it. Maybe that's why our poorer technology worked? It wasn't being over taxed.

The bottom line is that fish keeping is supposed to be an enjoyment, not a job. Everybody's definition of enjoyment differs so there are always going to be different levels of how things are or should be done.



On another note, Just wait until you get to my years of experience. These will be the "Good ol' days " for you.

With my limited experience with fish keeping thus far I feel that things haven't changed much in the sense that consistency is key but then others report differently. There must be something in the water


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[LayzorBeams]

This "Works" but does it seem right?

Thats how I feel about it. Many Fish in the wild may seem to hang around the same spot but they do have a little bit of space to move as they please. I personally enjoy the look of a lightly stocked tank so its not really a problem for me but I honestly think that it is a less stressful way for them to live. Can I prove it? No, not really. But I do think there is some anecdotal evidence that this is the case.

Now this is interesting, bringing up the fact that they behave different in the wild. I will get in to what i know in a second.

But in regards to does it seem "right?" Well thats a difficult one. If you like to take the track that these fish are kept in large numbers in a glass box, then no it doesn't seem right. But then again, that could apply to all of fish-keeping. We *should've* just left the fish in the wild, we never should've tamed the wolves to make dogs, we shouldn't use horses etc. But its a relationship. We *usually* give them a safe place to live and they get an abundance of food, and they entertain us or make us money. So it does seem right in that sense.

Im the wild, fish congregate. This is why you can cast a line into the same spot and get fish after fish.

Another fact is, we give fish reasons to be aggressive. Generally, fish are only going to be territorial when in breeding condition and trying to attract a mate, or when in the various stages of breeding, or when raising fry. They don't get enough high-quality food for them to breed every few weeks, as they do in aquaria, so they are more passive in social settings in the wild. In our aquariums, we feed them high-quality diets and they are always in prime condition. They are constantly in breeding mode. So in keeping them "healthy" we are giving them reasons to kill each other.

Does that make sense? This applies for many, but not all, types of fish.

One fish that is often used as an example: Jaguar Cichlid. These are terribly aggressive aquarium fish that can easily shred whatever goes in with them. In the wild they give in groups of up to a couple dozen. Granted its in a 100 foot square area VS the ~10 square feet of our tanks, but still. Its because Jags in the aquarium are fed such wonderful things that they are always trying to breed and therefore are constantly in an aggressive state.

So we arent stressing them out by putting them in tanks with bunches of fish, we are stressing them out by putting them in tanks with bunches of animals who have an instinct to kill to help the chances of passing along their genetics.




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[LayzorBeams]

Now this is interesting, bringing up the fact that they behave different in the wild. I will get in to what i know in a second.

But in regards to does it seem "right?" Well thats a difficult one. If you like to take the track that these fish are kept in large numbers in a glass box, then no it doesn't seem right. But then again, that could apply to all of fish-keeping. We *should've* just left the fish in the wild, we never should've tamed the wolves to make dogs, we shouldn't use horses etc. But its a relationship. We *usually* give them a safe place to live and they get an abundance of food, and they entertain us or make us money. So it does seem right in that sense.

Im the wild, fish congregate. This is why you can cast a line into the same spot and get fish after fish.

Another fact is, we give fish reasons to be aggressive. Generally, fish are only going to be territorial when in breeding condition and trying to attract a mate, or when in the various stages of breeding, or when raising fry. They don't get enough high-quality food for them to breed every few weeks, as they do in aquaria, so they are more passive in social settings in the wild. In our aquariums, we feed them high-quality diets and they are always in prime condition. They are constantly in breeding mode. So in keeping them "healthy" we are giving them reasons to kill each other.

Does that make sense? This applies for many, but not all, types of fish.

One fish that is often used as an example: Jaguar Cichlid. These are terribly aggressive aquarium fish that can easily shred whatever goes in with them. In the wild they give in groups of up to a couple dozen. Granted its in a 100 foot square area VS the ~10 square feet of our tanks, but still. Its because Jags in the aquarium are fed such wonderful things that they are always trying to breed and therefore are constantly in an aggressive state.

So we arent stressing them out by putting them in tanks with bunches of fish, we are stressing them out by putting them in tanks with bunches of animals who have an instinct to kill to help the chances of passing along their genetics.




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[LayzorBeams]

Oops sorry i mean to hit "edit" not "quote".


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[Dallascowboys16]

One fish that is often used as an example: Jaguar Cichlid. These are terribly aggressive aquarium fish that can easily shred whatever goes in with them. In the wild they give in groups of up to a couple dozen. Granted its in a 100 foot square area VS the ~10 square feet of our tanks, but still. Its because Jags in the aquarium are fed such wonderful things that they are always trying to breed and therefore are constantly in an aggressive state.

So we arent stressing them out by putting them in tanks with bunches of fish, we are stressing them out by putting them in tanks with bunches of animals who have an instinct to kill to help the chances of passing along their genetics.


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Thant is an interesting line of thought. However I have a few problems with it. First of a jaguar Cichlid (Im assuming you are referring to Parachromis managuensis) is inherently an aggressive and territorial species. It will give most things you put in with it a hard time and that is not because it is trying to breed, it is because it is very intolerant of another fish within an enclosed space. A caged animal is almost 100% of the time more aggressive than one out in the Wild. A single juvenile Jag will be aggressive like a pair of Breeding adults. If juvenile who has no drive to breed yet is still acting aggressively this would pretty much prove it is not just a breeding behavior. I believe this pretty much debunks the theory that they are aggressive only because they are attempting to breed.
Many Fish in the wild also spawn regularly, some almost constantly like many spawn scatters including rainbows, tetras, barbs, minnows, Etc. Many cichlids are no exception. Many rift lake species are almost always either in the process of raising fry or laying eggs, SA and CA species also breed quite regularly with their partner and can raise many spawns successively after the other. The food that these animals often consume in the wild is far superior to our processed foods in terms of conditioning for spawning. Algae eaters and grazers have an almost infinite supply of bio-film and the like. Characins, including tetras, silver Dollars, Pencilfish, and Piranhas have a vast supply of insect larvae, other small fish fry, infusoria, etc to feed on constantly throughout the day, Many breeders try to emulate this in order to stimulate courtship. In these species. Also, addressing your last point, packing a tank full of fish does stress a fish out. Many fish can be outcompeted for food by boisterous tank mates and may species become increasingly shy with every tank mate added (Think CPDs and Micro fish)

 

[LayzorBeams]

Thant is an interesting line of thought. However I have a few problems with it. First of a jaguar Cichlid (Im assuming you are referring to Parachromis managuensis) is inherently an aggressive and territorial species. It will give most things you put in with it a hard time and that is not because it is trying to breed, it is because it is very intolerant of another fish within an enclosed space. A caged animal is almost 100% of the time more aggressive than one out in the Wild. A single juvenile Jag will be aggressive like a pair of Breeding adults. If juvenile who has no drive to breed yet is still acting aggressively this would pretty much prove it is not just a breeding behavior. I believe this pretty much debunks the theory that they are aggressive only because they are attempting to breed.
Many Fish in the wild also spawn regularly, some almost constantly like many spawn scatters including rainbows, tetras, barbs, minnows, Etc. Many cichlids are no exception. Many rift lake species are almost always either in the process of raising fry or laying eggs, SA and CA species also breed quite regularly with their partner and can raise many spawns successively after the other. The food that these animals often consume in the wild is far superior to our processed foods in terms of conditioning for spawning. Algae eaters and grazers have an almost infinite supply of bio-film and the like. Characins, including tetras, silver Dollars, Pencilfish, and Piranhas have a vast supply of insect larvae, other small fish fry, infusoria, etc to feed on constantly throughout the day, Many breeders try to emulate this in order to stimulate courtship. In these species. Also, addressing your last point, packing a tank full of fish does stress a fish out. Many fish can be outcompeted for food by boisterous tank mates and may species become increasingly shy with every tank mate added (Think CPDs and Micro fish)

I disagree with some of that and agree with some as well.

I will mainly focus on larger cichlids and other larger predators as that was what i was originally talking about with my argument of them always being in breeding mode. These fish are also usually the cause of threads such as this one, because the bigger the fish the more difference in opinions on what tank they need. I understand that many others arent like this. I merely used an example that describes a lot of fishes.

Sure, food in the wild is better for them, they lived for thousands if not millions of years eating it. But they don't get food every day in mist cases. Sometimes they don't even get it every single week. Its generally at certain times during the year when they spawn, which is usually in springtime for most fish. Im not exactly sure when it is in a more stable climate though.

Example: the common types of Sunfish you catch at a lake, Bluegills and Pumpkinseeds etc. These only usually spawn during spring. Plants grow then, other fish eat off of plants and other tiny organisms that need warm water, which gives these fish more food. They are then able to condition themselves for spawning. After they downsize the population of any fishes they can eat, it becomes harder for them to spawn. Females of any species need a lot of nutrients to create eggs, and any live-bearing animals need even more. The males are able to spawn much more often than females, but still need to be healthy.

Also, in regards to the Jaguar, and yes i mean the Managuensis; they are trying to breed at a young age. You can find examples of 2-3 inch Jags breeding, although most fry didn't survive. As soon as they are big enough to produce the things they need, fertile eggs and sperm, they will breed. This happens very early. However, in the wild it is basically impossible for these fish to breed at this size. Because there is no way for them to get the nutritional value to be in a condition where that can survive breeding. They simply cannot get enough food in their bodies to breed.

So yes, as soon as you see them getting aggressive they are trying to breed. They defend territories mainly for breeding purposes.

Also, caged animals arent as aggressive in all cases as wild animals. This boils down in a few ways.

Generally they arent as predatory. They arent being fed live creatures as a staple, like they would in the wild. Predators are generally more aggressive as they have to compete harder for food.

Also, in a sense of being around humans, they arent really being more aggressive. They just arent scared anymore. A Dovii that is 20+ inches long in aquarium isn't scared to swim towards you and take a chomp, but in the wild they would make a quick escape.

And in ways, yes overstocking does stress fish. But, as for this specific argument I'm sticking to the bug predators, i kind of disagree. They arent really out-competed. They are usually able to pack enough punch to dive in and get a bite or two of food and get out, and repeat. In the wild they have to deal with this in ways as well. My reasoning is this: since a lot of prey fish school, the predators are usually attracted to these giant masses of baitfish. This is and easier meal for them that can really help them out by filling them up for a while.

The big fish just dive right in, and eat a lot of those smaller fish. The predators that are smaller but still wanting a meal have to take a chance; they can go in and get a good meal and maybe get bitten by a bigger fish, or stay out and stay safe. They still go for the food, even though the big fish are in a bit of a frenzy and might eat the smaller predators. They usually can grab a bite and swim away safely.

Its usually the same in the aquarium. With a lot of food, the fish get into an excited state. They are focused on food and not chasing down their opponents. We also usually keep fish close enough in size to not eat each other.

Does that make any sense? Again, im focusing on the larger types of predators, think Convict and larger. These are the fish that have to get filled with nutrients to breed, which is hard in the wild due to a supply of food that isn't a constant for them, but is in our tanks.




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[LayzorBeams]

Im pretty sure thats like the longest post in history of posts.

My fingers hurt typed too much today.


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[Dallascowboys16]

Some very nice points in your last post. Thank you for the discussion.

 

[Gillie]

I disagree with some of that and agree with some as well.

I will mainly focus on larger cichlids and other larger predators as that was what i was originally talking about with my argument of them always being in breeding mode. These fish are also usually the cause of threads such as this one, because the bigger the fish the more difference in opinions on what tank they need. I understand that many others arent like this. I merely used an example that describes a lot of fishes.

Sure, food in the wild is better for them, they lived for thousands if not millions of years eating it. But they don't get food every day in mist cases. Sometimes they don't even get it every single week. Its generally at certain times during the year when they spawn, which is usually in springtime for most fish. Im not exactly sure when it is in a more stable climate though.

Example: the common types of Sunfish you catch at a lake, Bluegills and Pumpkinseeds etc. These only usually spawn during spring. Plants grow then, other fish eat off of plants and other tiny organisms that need warm water, which gives these fish more food. They are then able to condition themselves for spawning. After they downsize the population of any fishes they can eat, it becomes harder for them to spawn. Females of any species need a lot of nutrients to create eggs, and any live-bearing animals need even more. The males are able to spawn much more often than females, but still need to be healthy.

Also, in regards to the Jaguar, and yes i mean the Managuensis; they are trying to breed at a young age. You can find examples of 2-3 inch Jags breeding, although most fry didn't survive. As soon as they are big enough to produce the things they need, fertile eggs and sperm, they will breed. This happens very early. However, in the wild it is basically impossible for these fish to breed at this size. Because there is no way for them to get the nutritional value to be in a condition where that can survive breeding. They simply cannot get enough food in their bodies to breed.

So yes, as soon as you see them getting aggressive they are trying to breed. They defend territories mainly for breeding purposes.

Also, caged animals arent as aggressive in all cases as wild animals. This boils down in a few ways.

Generally they arent as predatory. They arent being fed live creatures as a staple, like they would in the wild. Predators are generally more aggressive as they have to compete harder for food.

Also, in a sense of being around humans, they arent really being more aggressive. They just arent scared anymore. A Dovii that is 20+ inches long in aquarium isn't scared to swim towards you and take a chomp, but in the wild they would make a quick escape.

And in ways, yes overstocking does stress fish. But, as for this specific argument I'm sticking to the bug predators, i kind of disagree. They arent really out-competed. They are usually able to pack enough punch to dive in and get a bite or two of food and get out, and repeat. In the wild they have to deal with this in ways as well. My reasoning is this: since a lot of prey fish school, the predators are usually attracted to these giant masses of baitfish. This is and easier meal for them that can really help them out by filling them up for a while.

The big fish just dive right in, and eat a lot of those smaller fish. The predators that are smaller but still wanting a meal have to take a chance; they can go in and get a good meal and maybe get bitten by a bigger fish, or stay out and stay safe. They still go for the food, even though the big fish are in a bit of a frenzy and might eat the smaller predators. They usually can grab a bite and swim away safely.

Its usually the same in the aquarium. With a lot of food, the fish get into an excited state. They are focused on food and not chasing down their opponents. We also usually keep fish close enough in size to not eat each other.

Does that make any sense? Again, im focusing on the larger types of predators, think Convict and larger. These are the fish that have to get filled with nutrients to breed, which is hard in the wild due to a supply of food that isn't a constant for them, but is in our tanks.




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I have to disagree slightly on the food vs spawn issue. It will depend greatly on the environment, in your example of sunfish you stated they have to wait for warmer water, which does hold fairly true in their northern range, but what about the southern range where the conditions for spawning are nearly year round? There's always an abundance of insect larvae and small crustaceans, yet they too tend to only spawn once a year.

A pretty good example to disprove the theory that a wild fish will spawn more comes from my experience with Apistogramma. I've dealt with a lot of pairs and groups of wild fish that in theory should have spawned regularly, given proper conditions and feeding, yet 9 times out of 10 it did not happen. At least not until I introduced an environmental trigger. I ended up having to raise the temp, let the water quality slowly degrade over a month or so while feeding mosquito larvae and daphnia. Finally after a few water changes with cool water they started to spawn. They would also produce a few spawns in this time, then suddenly stop, although the feeding never changed. So it seems to be a biological factor in the fish itself, which is likely lost in tankraised fish which would cause them to spawn regularly.



Oh and Andy I still like to keep it old school, I have 1 power filter the rest of the tanks are sponges and the growouts are unfiltered with 50%+ daily wc's.

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[PNWaquarist]

For me, the 50% water change recommendation is simple math. I personally like to keep my nitrates below 40ppm. I am not sure why i arrived at that number, but it works for me. At that point i do a 50% change to knock my trates down to 20ppm.

If i do 10% water changes its gonna take me 6 - 7 water changes to do what a single 50% change would do.

I would guess that the amount of research done in the past 40 or so years about the effect of nitrate on fish has also played a role in the greater emphasis on water changes.

 

[LayzorBeams]

I have to disagree slightly on the food vs spawn issue. It will depend greatly on the environment, in your example of sunfish you stated they have to wait for warmer water, which does hold fairly true in their northern range, but what about the southern range where the conditions for spawning are nearly year round? There's always an abundance of insect larvae and small crustaceans, yet they too tend to only spawn once a year.

A pretty good example to disprove the theory that a wild fish will spawn more comes from my experience with Apistogramma. I've dealt with a lot of pairs and groups of wild fish that in theory should have spawned regularly, given proper conditions and feeding, yet 9 times out of 10 it did not happen. At least not until I introduced an environmental trigger. I ended up having to raise the temp, let the water quality slowly degrade over a month or so while feeding mosquito larvae and daphnia. Finally after a few water changes with cool water they started to spawn. They would also produce a few spawns in this time, then suddenly stop, although the feeding never changed. So it seems to be a biological factor in the fish itself, which is likely lost in tankraised fish which would cause them to spawn regularly.



Oh and Andy I still like to keep it old school, I have 1 power filter the rest of the tanks are sponges and the growouts are unfiltered with 50%+ daily wc's.

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Again, im focusing mainly on bigger fish, at least for the argument about "feed=breed." Its a bit different for smaller fish as they have a bit of an easier time being able to get wnough food to breed, IMO.

But i do see what youre saying with the Apistos.

However, you say it has to do with changes in temperature and water level and the like. This is still in effect in the wild. It is very obvious in North America, it is somewhat less obvious in Central, and it is very subtle differences in most of South America. So it is, at least for North and Central America, probably due to the changing seasonal weather. In South America there are seasons with a lot of rain, which i believe is when the majority of fish spawn.

So it does have to do with food. Because the big fish have to wait for the little fish to spawn so they can eat the baby little fish, get fat, and then do their own spawning. So it does have to do with feeding, although a step before that is the current temperature/water level of the area.


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[LayzorBeams]

"A pretty good example to disprove the theory that a wild fish will spawn more."

Im trying to say that wild fish will spawn less, not more.

Are you trying to say that wild-caught fish spwan more than tank-bred? Or are you saying they are equal? Or do you think that wild-caught breed less often but for a different reason that what im pointing out.



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[Andy Sager]

"A pretty good example to disprove the theory that a wild fish will spawn more."

Im trying to say that wild fish will spawn less, not more.

Are you trying to say that wild-caught fish spwan more than tank-bred? Or are you saying they are equal? Or do you think that wild-caught breed less often but for a different reason that what im pointing out.



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It's been my experience that wild fish breed seasonally opposed to tank bred which seem to breed more readily. It really depends on the fish tho. Depending on their lifespan, this may increase spawning activity for a length of time then it ceases all together. I have had, in the past, wild fish that eventually started breeding more by tank conditions than time of the year That was done by giving them a break for shorter amounts of time then duplicating the spawning conditions again, sooner. I did it with Rams, Angels, Discus and Oscars. The other fish I did were F1, F2 generations of wild fish so it counts, kinda?

 

[LayzorBeams]

So I'm kind of right? That the wild fish spawn in a more seasonal manner and the captive-breds don't?

I was pretty sure that was right. I will stick with my reasoning, even though I'm sure others have other reasons.




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[Gillie]

So I'm kind of right? That the wild fish spawn in a more seasonal manner and the captive-breds don't?

I was pretty sure that was right. I will stick with my reasoning, even though I'm sure others have other reasons.




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Yes, I only slightly disagreed because it is not so food dependent for the adults as it is proper conditions for egg/fry survival ie sunfish in the North tend to spawn late April early June when the water temp is 65 degrees or so which is when eggs will have a chance at survival. As Andy stated longer lived fish really have no need to spawn more than once a season as most of them have large spawns and live long enough to not have to worry as much about continuing the species. Any wild fish can be coaxed into spawning more often, just a matter of "resetting" the biological clock which passes on each generation until no special tactics are needed, they just do it on their own.

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[Andy Sager]

So I'm kind of right? That the wild fish spawn in a more seasonal manner and the captive-breds don't?

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Yes and no. Some/ most wild fish breed in a seasonal manner but not all. Take annual fishes such as the Killies. They hatch when the rain comes, whenever that is, then spawn before the water disappears(whenever that is as well.) So in their case, it's more situational than seasonal.

Yes, I only slightly disagreed because it is not so food dependent for the adults as it is proper conditions for egg/fry survival ie sunfish in the North tend to spawn late April early June when the water temp is 65 degrees or so which is when eggs will have a chance at survival. As Andy stated longer lived fish really have no need to spawn more than once a season as most of them have large spawns and live long enough to not have to worry as much about continuing the species. Any wild fish can be coaxed into spawning more often, just a matter of "resetting" the biological clock which passes on each generation until no special tactics are needed, they just do it on their own.

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From everything that I've read and observed personally, Yes, wild fish spawn when the chances for the fry for survival are at their highest more so than for the breeders. This, however, usually coincides with the culmination of the better feeding/conditional period for the parents. A little bit of aquatic husbandry trickery can change the fish's behavior in a tank to think it's safer more frequently. Again, it's in some cases and not all. I've found that fish that do more parenting tend to spawn less frequently than fish that scatter their eggs for example. In the case of say Angelfish, I've had domestics spawn as frequently as every 7 days while wild fish don;t since they tend to their fry until they are large enough to fend for themselves ( at least without the parents leading the way. ) However, this timeframe changes if the parents lose the spawn. Then they go back to breeding a.s.a.p. So it's really not something you can say applies to all fish as the OP is trying to do. There are just too many cases that differ.

 

[LayzorBeams]

I miss this thread

I hope it isn't too shameful to try to draw back a little bit of attention to it?


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