The cursed tank.

[Itsasylum]

So I recently bought a 10 gallon tank, the price was right and it came with the hood, lights and filter. I got it all setup, got the Temps right and the eater parameters right and put my betta fish in it. For the first day he was fine and loving life then i noticed the next day that he was very lethargic. He would only swim up to the surface then back down to the rocks where he would just sit for hours i figured he was just adjusting to his new home. I was planning on moving him back to his 3 gallon the next morning if he was still acting rhe same way seeing as he was losing color and not eating. Well I woke up the next morning to him in his side dead :,(

I cleaned the tank out, and set it back up. Making the water perfect and the Temps perfect. I put some new fish in it and noticed they just went right down to the rocks and stayed there. Now they did move around a little more than my betta did. But I panicked and put them in a 3 gallon with one plant in it and they are swimming just fine.

What could be wrong with that tank???

 

[Andy Sager]

So I recently bought a 10 gallon tank, the price was right and it came with the hood, lights and filter. I got it all setup, got the Temps right and the eater parameters right and put my betta fish in it. For the first day he was fine and loving life then i noticed the next day that he was very lethargic. He would only swim up to the surface then back down to the rocks where he would just sit for hours i figured he was just adjusting to his new home. I was planning on moving him back to his 3 gallon the next morning if he was still acting rhe same way seeing as he was losing color and not eating. Well I woke up the next morning to him in his side dead :,(

I cleaned the tank out, and set it back up. Making the water perfect and the Temps perfect. I put some new fish in it and noticed they just went right down to the rocks and stayed there. Now they did move around a little more than my betta did. But I panicked and put them in a 3 gallon with one plant in it and they are swimming just fine.

What could be wrong with that tank???

What kinds of substrate and decorations do you have in the tank?

 

[Itsasylum]

What kinds of substrate and decorations do you have in the tank?

I'm just using some black aquarium gravel.


As for the decorations. I have 2 little houses they could go in. One housing a live plant also, 2 fake plants, 2 bamboo sticks, and the bubbler stone.

 

[Andy Sager]

I'm just using some black aquarium gravel.


As for the decorations. I have 2 little houses they could go in. One housing a live plant also, 2 fake plants, 2 bamboo sticks, and the bubbler stone.

Try taking some of the black gravel and place it in a container that is large enough to hold about 1/2 gallon of water, add an air stone and place one of your fish in the container to see if the fish reacts to the gravel. The other option is what are the houses made of? Also, what kind of plant is in the one house?

Also, how close are the 2 tanks to each other? ( Trying to see if your airpump could be sucking in something from the air. )

 

[Itsasylum]

I should also point out that my snail is completely fine in there.

 

[Itsasylum]

Try taking some of the black gravel and place it in a container that is large enough to hold about 1/2 gallon of water, add an air stone and place one of your fish in the container to see if the fish reacts to the gravel. The other option is what are the houses made of? Also, what kind of plant is in the one house?

Also, how close are the 2 tanks to each other? ( Trying to see if your airpump could be sucking in something from the air. )

I think I found the problem!!! My nitrite is WAYYYY off.

 

[Aiken Drum]

It doesnt sound like you cycled the tank before adding your fish. Do you know how to cycle a tank? Do you know your ammonia level?

You havent mentioned water conditioner.

Also can you give the values from the test strip rather than a photo of the strip. Or hold it against the chart that gives readings. I think you have the strip upside down against that chart (nitrate against the pH and pH against the nitrate). Your test would indicate low nitrate and nitrite, but i would like to see it against the colour chart.

 

[Itsasylum]

It doesnt sound like you cycled the tank before adding your fish. Do you know how to cycle a tank? Do you know your ammonia level?

You havent mentioned water conditioner.

Also can you give the values from the test strip rather than a photo of the strip. Or hold it against the chart that gives readings. I think you have the strip upside down against that chart (nitrate against the pH and pH against the nitrate). Your test would indicate low nitrate and nitrite, but i would like to see it against the colour chart.

You are absolutely right! The strip is upside down..

I'll get the numbers in a sec!

 

[ccronje]

I think I found the problem!!! My nitrite is WAYYYY off.

You could try Seachem Prime to detoxify the Ammonia and Nitrites, but why does your PH and Alkalinity seem to be zero?

 

[Aiken Drum]

You could try Seachem Prime to detoxify the Ammonia and Nitrites, but why does your PH and Alkalinity seem to be zero?

The test strip is upside down. The nitrate test is against the pH and the pH test is against the nitrate. The chart also isnt the chart you are supposed to read against, so really there is no way of knowing what the test results are, but it looks like nitrite and nitrate are zero or close to zero.

I wouldnt trust prime to detoxify nitrite. They have no evidence beyond anecdotal that it does this. Their own websites FAQ admits they have no idea how it does this if indeed it does. The product wasnt designed to detoxify nitrite, its just a claim they make because someone once said they think it might be doing this. Pretty much the same can be said about the ammonia detoxifying properties, although at least seachem say they understand how it does this even though they wont tell anyone the chemical process.

By all means use Prime, its a good water conditioner. But it should be used as a back up with regards to its detoxifying properties alongside controlling water parameters with water changes. Dont rely on it to do anything beyond removing chlorine/ chloramine.

 

[ccronje]

The test strip is upside down. The nitrate test is against the pH and the pH test is against the nitrate. The chart also isnt the chart you are supposed to read against, so really there is no way of knowing what the test results are, but it looks like nitrite and nitrate are zero or close to zero.

I wouldnt trust prime to detoxify nitrite. They have no evidence beyond anecdotal that it does this. Their own websites FAQ admits they have no idea how it does this if indeed it does. The product wasnt designed to detoxify nitrite, its just a claim they make because someone once said they think it might be doing this. Pretty much the same can be said about the ammonia detoxifying properties, although at least seachem say they understand how it does this even though they wont tell anyone the chemical process.

By all means use Prime, its a good water conditioner. But it should be used as a back up with regards to its detoxifying properties alongside controlling water parameters with water changes. Dont rely on it to do anything beyond removing chlorine/ chloramine.

Prime worked very well for me when I did a fish in cycle on a new tank. Absolutely no signs of any distress on the fish throughout the ammonia and nitrite spikes.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Thing is ammonia and nitrite just isnt as toxic as its often claimed. If you have acidic water ammonia isnt toxic at all. Unless your parameters spiked well into the whole numbers, and fish are kept in those conditions for an extended period, fish are probably going to be fine and even if it does get to toxic levels it would need to be into the double figures to start killing fish in front of you. Ammonia and nitrite issues are long term things, and you usually dont see the results of ammonia or nitrite poisoning for months after the spike, by which time you will be cycled and put your issues down to some other factor because your test results are now good.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thing is ammonia and nitrite just isnt as toxic as its often claimed. If you have acidic water ammonia isnt toxic at all. Unless your parameters spiked well into the whole numbers, and fish are kept in those conditions for an extended period, fish are probably going to be fine and even if it does get to toxic levels it would need to be into the double figures to start killing fish in front of you. Ammonia and nitrite issues are long term things, and you usually dont see the results of ammonia or nitrite poisoning for months after the spike, by which time you will be cycled and put your issues down to some other factor because your test results are now good.

Yes, Ph plays a major role in toxicity of these. If the Ph is above 7.0, that's when the toxicity starts to play a role. This is why KNOWING your water parameters is so important. You can't see this stuff in the water with the naked eye.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Yes, Ph plays a major role in toxicity of these. If the Ph is above 7.0, that's when the toxicity starts to play a role. This is why KNOWING your water parameters is so important. You can't see this stuff in the water with the naked eye.

Nitrite toxicity works the other way. The higher the pH the less toxic it gets.

Nitrite ions and nitrous acid transition with pH and temperature in a similar way that total ammonia transition between free ammonia and ammonium. As pH drops more toxic nitrous acids prevails and the water becomes more toxic.

 

[Andy Sager]

Nitrite toxicity works the other way. The higher the pH the less toxic it gets.

Nitrite ions and nitrous acid transition with pH and temperature in a similar way that total ammonia transition between free ammonia and ammonium. As pH drops more toxic nitrous acids prevails and the water becomes more toxic.

Yes, that part of my answer unfortunately was erased without me realizing it. :^s ( I really need to read my posts before hitting submit. ) So basically, depending on the Ph, if the ammonia doesn't kill the fish, the nitrites will unless you go so acidic that there is no nitrification happening and the ammonia never converts.
It's amazing that our "fish in" cycling of yesteryear actually worked ( but it did. ) This is actually why it was a godsend when Fritz came up with fritzyme #7 & #9. It was very effective for cycling tanks way back then as it is today.

 

[Aiken Drum]

At a neutral pH of 7 and 24c water temp, you arent going to see the effects of ammonia or nitrite until you get to around 4ppm of either. Long term harm will occur at around 2ppm, but wont be noticable in the tank until long after the tank is cycled and there are health issues that arent put down to water quality because the water tests fine.

I seem to remember you raised this with pettygil and her mysterious fish deaths.

IMO this is why Seachem can continue to get away with their detoxifying claims without evidence. People say "it worked for me" but in reality they either never experienced toxic water parameters because they did water changes, or if the water did get to toxic levels their fish didn't start to suffer until months or even years later and it is then put down to something else. All those cases of dropsy probably have some cause.

If you follow seachems recommendations on how to use prime to detoxify, ie do a water change and dose with prime, the water change will be doing most (if not all) of the work.

 

[ccronje]

At a neutral pH of 7 and 24c water temp, you arent going to see the effects of ammonia or nitrite until you get to around 4ppm of either. Long term harm will occur at around 2ppm, but wont be noticable in the tank until long after the tank is cycled and there are health issues that arent put down to water quality because the water tests fine.

I seem to remember you raised this with pettygil and her mysterious fish deaths.

IMO this is why Seachem can continue to get away with their detoxifying claims without evidence. People say "it worked for me" but in reality they either never experienced toxic water parameters because they did water changes, or if the water did get to toxic levels their fish didn't start to suffer until months or even years later and it is then put down to something else. All those cases of dropsy probably have some cause.

If you follow seachems recommendations on how to use prime to detoxify, ie do a water change and dose with prime, the water change will be doing most (if not all) of the work.

Could be, but personally I did not do a single water change during my cycle while using Prime. I don't recall seeing that Seachem recommends that.

 

[Andy Sager]

At a neutral pH of 7 and 24c water temp, you arent going to see the effects of ammonia or nitrite until you get to around 4ppm of either. Long term harm will occur at around 2ppm, but wont be noticable in the tank until long after the tank is cycled and there are health issues that arent put down to water quality because the water tests fine.

I seem to remember you raised this with pettygil and her mysterious fish deaths.

IMO this is why Seachem can continue to get away with their detoxifying claims without evidence. People say "it worked for me" but in reality they either never experienced toxic water parameters because they did water changes, or if the water did get to toxic levels their fish didn't start to suffer until months or even years later and it is then put down to something else. All those cases of dropsy probably have some cause.

If you follow seachems recommendations on how to use prime to detoxify, ie do a water change and dose with prime, the water change will be doing most (if not all) of the work.

We all have different results. I've seen noticeable signs of ammonia poisoning at 1 ppm so it doesn't always have to get to 2ppm for it to be a problem. Many areas of this country have soft acidic water so it's not as much a problem but here in Florida for example, to find water under 7.6 - 7.8 is a rarity. I'm in a pine forest and my well water reads 8.2-8.4. When I lived in S. Florida, the tap water read 8.4 -8.6 most of the time. ( We won't even talk about the hardness factor down there because it was rock hard. It's very soft here. ) Maybe it's different where you are because, as I've said many times over, "water is not the same everywhere. " As for Seachem's recommendations, I'm sure it's water dependent but I haven't seen THAT on the bottle so while it works for some, it won't work for others. I'll stick with my favorite Fritzyme.