upside down fish!!

[Donna]

"since poor Ponyo died on monday, the fish tank has been very odd. Glimmer has been sitting on the bottom for most of the day and there are some shadowy parts on her body which worry me. but this morning i was horrified to find my poor Bolly being relentlessly chased by Star and ALL of her fins were torn to pieces!!! I mean savaged!! i had to put my hand in the tank to seperate them. then Schnitzel had a go at her. whilst i cornered the two offenders, she fell to the bottom gasping for breath, but Star slipped past me and went for her again. I had to take her out in a bucket whilst i figured out a way to keep them appart.

i eventually crafted a divider, cutting the plastic lid of my daughter's toy box and putting some holes in it to allow flow through. by the time i came to install it, the two bullies had been picking on Glimmer. i decied to put Bolly and Glimmer together and Star and Schnitzel on the other side. hopefully once Bolly has healed, the divider can go. Bolly seems a lot happier and after a rest, was investigating the divider. Glimmer still sat on the bottom though, and I'm kinda worried about her. any ideas on how to cheer her up or if there's something drasticly wrong?"

okay, quoting from my other thread as it seemed easier than typing out the full story again.

well this morning I suddenly noticed Glimmer struggling to stay upright, she turned right over and had a little panic near the surface for a while before sinking to the bottom on her side, (slightly curved along her body, i feared the worst.) unfortunately my daughter (who owns this particular fish) noticed, and was looking a little tearful. after a few minutes of just laying there gasping, The fish got up and started swimming the right way up again. i could see she was having a little trouble though, occasionally having to paddle her fins to stay upright. i gave them some bloodworms (they'd already had some flakes, so just a little) for some reason it occurred to me that it may have been constipation. this after noon i was relieved to find the fsh still upright and swimming. there's a thread-like poop trailing from her now, kinda backig up my idea that it could be constipation. but there are still patches on her body that worry me. i can't quite figure out what's up with this fish.

also, just for info sake: i have a 42lt tank, 4 fantails, live plants, rena filstar filter, bubble fountain just for fun. they get fed flakes, bloodworms and Daphnia (not all at the same time!) and i usually do twice weekly 20% water changes, and uber-vacuum the gravel until it's clean. (though currently doing daily changes.) last i checked, water parameters were fine. (since i'm doing daily water changes, i can't get a sample tested. i'm told the waer has to settle for three days?)

 

[Donna]

update: at 4:30 Glimmer started struggling again and collapsed again upsaide down, she stayed for a lot longer this time and i was really certain that the little fin waving feebly was a wave good-bye. my friend was on hand hugging me when the fish struggled up again, righted herself and seemed ok for a bit. she wedged herself in the plant for a rest, and a little later was up and swimming again. (felt quite embarrassed that my frined had needed to stop me crying about a fish, but man i love these guys. she understood though, i have great friends.)

 

[BigJim]

Sorry to hear your fish aren't doing well.

What are your water parameters? Numbers, not "fine" please.
Have you added anything or done anything different recently?
How old are your fish?

 

[dkpate]

+1 for Jim
You could get some Stress-Coat water conditioner, since it had aloe in it, and will help repair torn fins. I think she is just exhausted and that's why she is on the bottom.

 

[Zagz]

Aside from what Jim has asked, does she have any bloating at all? Have you seen her poo lately? Has she been eating.

 

[Donna]

thanks guys, she's been eating fine, gave her some bloodworms this morning just to help along in case it's constipation, she has been pooping but not as much as usual, quite thin and occasionally just the white thread. nothing new added to the tank, except the divider, but she'd been sitting on the bottom before that. the fish are about a year old now, infact, we got Glimmer and Bolly "last weekend" a year ago (does that even make sense??!!). she does look a little chubbier than usual and theres a bit of a lump showing on her side this morning a little way back from her gills which worries me. sorry i don't have numbers for the parameters as i get my tests done at the store. they set up three tubes of my water and add the drops. then we check the color charts alongside, and they've always been on the top colour (where they should be) not sure what the figures actually are, i'l try to make a note of it next time a test is done. (i'm water changing daily at the moment, is there any way to test without having to leave the tank alone for three days?)
i'm currently dosing with Melafix and using stress coat to condition the water. (also it says on the bottle to add a dose if the fish are damaged or ill, so threw in an extra 5ml for Bolly's fins)
i think that's answered all of the above. many thanks all,
P.S. Nice Grey, Zagz we're currently looking at getting a Greenwing....but not until this is sorted!

 

[BigJim]

What test kit is the store using and which tests are they performing?

You can test the water whenever. There's no need to wait three days. Waiting will let the tank stabilize and can give a better understanding of what's really going on.

Try feeding your goldfish blanched peas. Goldfish need their greens and the peas may help with internal problems. Other than that, I might try Pimafix or another medication intended for internal parasites.

 

[Donna]

I think the store uses the API tests. (big 8 bottle set that costs about £30) i was going to buy one but the staff said they get sent their supplies for free and don't mind doing regular checks for me. it would be nice to have a set though, just so that i can test the water any time, rather than having to work with store opening times. They do Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite. and have occasionally checked the oxygen levels for me. As said, they are usually always on the top of the chart.

I'll try the peas, it's worth a shot. They have live plants, so i haven't really worried about greens before. they used to get cucumber just as a treat, but didn't show much interest in anything else so we left the veg completely. they tried a bit of peach the other day, and my home-grown strawberries (Seriously privaledged to be getting them!)they're not the slightest bit interested in fruit it seems! (sounds like my daughter!)

today has been full of worry, all four fish have just been laying on the ground, looking pretty bored...or ill. see for yourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPrWV22MCG8
i just gave them a water change, all but Glimmer seemed to get up and dig about in the gravel incase the Gravel Vac (poover, as my daughter has called it) has left behind or unearthed anything tasty. fairly soon though, they all sat back down.
could it just be that it's been hectic in there for a while? I mean, Ponyo's gone, Star and Schnitzel have their spots on! Bolly got chased and torn and the tank has been divided into two, girls on one side, boys on the other. could the boys just be miserable because they've got their spots on but can't reach the girls? not to mention, Glimmer is clearly unwell. (Star's beginning to look a little Chubbier than he should be) I'm tearing hair out here. my tank used to be an idealic fish paradise full of spoiled fantails....now it ain't. *sigh*

 

[Donna]

darn, last half of my post is missing and vid has posted twice for some reason....

following video was:
"I did a water change earlier and all but glimmer got up and started digging about in the gravel in case the poover (gravel Vac) had left behind or unearched anything tasty, but they soon all sat back down again.
could it just be that it's been a hectic week in there? i mean, ponyo's gone, the boys have got their spots on, Bolly got chased and torn, and the tank has been divided into two. the boys are on one side and girls on the other, purely by coincidence. could it be that the boys are bored? they've got their spots on but the girls are seperate? on top of this, Glimmer is clearly not a well fish. (star looking a little chubbier than usual)
seriously tearing my hair out here, my tank used to be an idealic fishy paradise for five very spoiled fantails, now it ain't!! *sigh* "

sorry if this ends up posted twice, but I can't see this part on my screen

 

[jsoong]

Sorry to hear about more trouble in your tank. This is spring, and the chasing is normal mating behaviour. Unfortunately in a small (10 gal) tank, it can get messy, ending with injuries. <There are even cases where the females had been thrown clean out of the tank!>

The divider is a good short term fix for now. The swollen tummies might be constipation or possibly eggs in the females. Either one might bring on swimbladder problems & the symptoms. Bloodworm is prob not the best to treat constipation. Veggies are much better. I would feed nothing except peas for the next couple days & see what happens ...

Other than that, keep doing the pwc's and make sure the water is perfect. <And yes, you can test water even with recent pwc's .... you might have to interpret the results differently depending when & how much pwc there was, but it is useful to test the water nonetheless.>

 

[Zagz]

In addition to what jsoong says, and for the record I second the peas wholeheartedly, if the poo continues to be stringy and white, it may be internal parasites. Feed the peas, nuke them for a couple of seconds and skin them and then feed them to the fish. If they are constipated it will relieve them.

After that for a few days, if the poo is still white and stringy you may have to feed a medicated food for internal parasites.

Thanks for the comment about Pepper. We have now acquired a second grey.

 

[Donna]

thanks guys, I was led to believe that the bloodworms would help with the constipation back when first got the fish. i'll give the peas a go, but this morning Glimmer wasn't the slightest bit interested in any food. talk about worried sick!! i've always said to Ellie "it's fine so long as they're still eating."

following the bloodworm yesterday, Glimmer managed quite a bit of poop and no longer stringy, but she's still sat on the bottom. the other three are up and swimming (after yesterday's issues!)

i don't suppose Males look a bit bloated around the mating season do they? Star is a boy by the looks of things, but he's looking a little chubbier than usual (don't get me wrong, he's always been fairly butch!)

UPDATE: well peas are definately part of the menu from now on, three of the fish demolished at least 2 1/2 peas!! Bolly was producing pure green poop in a few hours! unfortunately, not even dropping a tiny mouth-sized bit in front of Glimmer could convince her to eat have also noticed that she's now turning white on her underside and half way up one side.

i took the divider out tonight, purely hoping that Glimmer's problem was being egg-bound and that the return of the males might produce results, but that fish is definately ill. i was worried that the boys would shred Bolly again, but they've been acting REALLY weird! they've been in little fish-huddles all evening, any time one gets up, the others dart after it and practically sit on it. at one point they were sat in a pyramid, Star and Glimmer were side-by-side, and bolly was sat on top of them both, all three were touching. (they moved when i got the camera out!) they can't seem to stand not being in physical contact with each other, but all still sat on the bottom.... really worrying.

 

[jsoong]

Males shouldn't get chubby during mating season. If you see breeding stars, then it is for sure a male, and chubby tummy might just be from the constipation. Peas should help that. But I would keep an eye out for anything else unusual.

A goldfish that is totally off food is worrisome. As for turning white, I assuming that is the fish's color fading from being sick, and not some white stuff on the fish? Or perhaps that is cloudy slimecoat? <This would look like cloudy white slime on top of the skin.>

I don't have any great solution for Glimmer .... Ideally, she should be isolated in a QT tank. Try fasting her for a day & try the peas again. If she is totally off food & looks sick, it maybe worthwhile to treat for a presumptive infection on spec. Since she is not eating, you will have to treat with meds in water. Your choice would be praziquental if you suspect parasites or kanamycin if bacterial infection is more likely. But I don't suppose you can get either in the UK ....

In the absence of meds, I might try adding some salt (0.1%), but this would be a long shot .... <BTW, check the scales & make sure she doesn't have any sign of dropsy - sticking out scales, eyes popping out, etc .... salt will worsen dropsy ....>

 

[Donna]

thanks for all your help guys, sadly Glimmer died last night at 10:30. she went over for a fourth time and couldn't get back up. after about 15 minutes, she gave it another attempt to get up but exhausted herself and just stayed upside down. she made a few more bursts and at one point was sinking down to the bottom, so i slipped my hand in so that she fell on me, then i tried to slowly turn her the right way up, but she just rolled back over. she stayed in my hand a few minutes and then dashed off across the tank upside down. at this point i put a jug in front of her so that she swam into it and i could take her out of the tank. she gave so many attempts before her gills stopped moving shockingly ten minutes later, her gills still hadn't moved but she swam round the jug!! (i thought she'd gone) but shorly after that, she really had gone. i left her in the jug over night, (just vainly hoping that she might get up again!)

this morning i was really depressed, borderline suicidal! dreading my daugther getting up and asking "where's my fish?" i came up with some excuse but i'm going to have to break the news to her after school. (friends suggested lying, but she knew Glimmer was not a well fish, and i think the truth will be heartbreaking, but the best for her.)

Jsoong: as usual, those meds aren't available here. it really sucks! i don't get why they're not allowed over here!

again, thanks to everyone who took the time to post on this thread, i would have liked to be thanking you all for my fishes recovery, but i guess this one was just too hard. sorry guys

 

[jsoong]

Sorry to hear about Glimmer's passing. It is tough losing a fish, but doubly so if you have to break the news to a child ..... ....<Incidentally, I agree with you, the truth might hurt, but I think it is best in the long run.>

 

[Donna]

she was pretty brave, people kept asking if i was ok at the school gates (had left a note on Facebook regarding poor glimmer as some of my friends who've seen the fish in the last few days asked to be kept posted.) Ellie guessed on the way home, bless her, she held in her tears until she got through the front door and then just crumbled! she knew her fish was pretty ill and it didn't seem to be as bad as when Ponyo died. (first is always the worst...me on the otherhand, i couldn't face the tank today and was almost borderline suicidal! ellie was hugging and comforting me!

 

[dkpate]

I am so sorry to hear that. I lost my favorite fish, and I was crying! (And I'm OLD!)
Are you going to try more fish?

 

[logansmomma1228]

That is a really sad story. I am very sorry to hear that. I would definitely be depressed as well. I am actually kind of depressed for you, because I can just picture poor little glimmer fighting for her life. RIP

 

[Donna]

dkpate: it has been talked about, we were thinking of a couple more red caps. David said he likes the sound of black moors but i've heard these are even more delicate than fantails! i'm a bit scared at the moment. obviously i'm not even entertaining the thought of adding new fish until all doubts on the health of my tank is settled, and even then i'd leave it a few weeks just to be sure. also, we may decide not to put more in as jsoong has commented that our 42lt tank is a very small set-up for goldies. we were originally told that we could put 8 in there and decided that 6 would be more comfortable (we got 5 in the end) then the guys at the petstore agreed that 5 is probably the max for goldies, and suggested a small shoal of minnows rather than another goldie...which we just never did.
not sure, stil as i said, my priorit is making sure my three remaining babies are healthy, then i'll put some thought into it.
Logansmomma: thanks, these guys are my babies, and i love them very much. it was pretty heartbreaking watching Glimmer struggle on. it hit my faith hard too, how could God let her struggle on so long if she was going to die? it must have been so stressful for her and i question God's mercy at the moment...she was just a little fishie.
Zagz: this has hit me pretty hard, seriously doubting that Greenwing now

 

[dkpate]

I remember when my BGK, Elvis, was suffering, and I healed him (I thought) and then he took a turn for the worse again and passed. It was REALLY sad, and I am still sad about it!
I forgot you still had 3 other ones. I would wait too.