Aphone
Aquarium Advice Activist
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2013
- Messages
- 150
Anyway to stop this?
Water evaporates too fast
- Thread starter Aphone
- Start date
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
jglover
Aquarium Advice Freak
A hood or glass top on the tank is the easiest way to slow down evaporation from your tank.
I've cut Perspex covers to fit.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
If you are topping off evaporated water used distilled or reverse osmosis water. If you use tap water, all the stuff like salts and heavy metals get left behind when water evaporates and you will be forever increasing the concentration of salts and metals until it gets to a concentration too high for the fish to tolerate.
You can buy a cheap TDS meter off amazon if you would like to monitor this more closely.
You can buy a cheap TDS meter off amazon if you would like to monitor this more closely.
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
Assuming you are doing 50% weekly water changes it will take a long long long time for this to happen. Even then just doubling up by doing 2 water changes every 4 or 5 months will be plenty to prevent it.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
It may take a long long long time to develop lung cancer from smoking cigarettes but that's not to say it shouldn't be taken seriously.
All uncertainties can be eradicated by simply topping off with RO. I'm fortunate (or maybe not) to live in an area where there is very little evaporation. Some people can lose up to an inch a day. Depending on the TDS in their tap water it may rise a bit quicker.
What's worse is topping off the tank with tap water over the course of a few months then doubling up on water changes and altering the TDS so suddenly and running the risk of osmotic shock.
It may not be as big a deal as I am making out but a possible banana skin that I feel everyone should be at least aware of.
All uncertainties can be eradicated by simply topping off with RO. I'm fortunate (or maybe not) to live in an area where there is very little evaporation. Some people can lose up to an inch a day. Depending on the TDS in their tap water it may rise a bit quicker.
What's worse is topping off the tank with tap water over the course of a few months then doubling up on water changes and altering the TDS so suddenly and running the risk of osmotic shock.
It may not be as big a deal as I am making out but a possible banana skin that I feel everyone should be at least aware of.
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
I agree that its a great thing to know. However its really not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. In my 20g reef tank with some of the most sensitive corals around I top off with 5 gallons of tap water weekly and do a bi weekly 10% change. About once every other month I do a 50% change.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Out of curiosity, do you know what the recommended TDS levels are for a reef tank and do you monitor it? It would be interesting to know if it is slowly rising.
Really?distilled as in like from the fridge?
I can only quote off my fridge which has a water dispenser but I know it is only filtered through carbon (improves taste and that's about it).
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
I'm sure it is rising but its pointless to monitor Tds in a reef tank. The salt alone makes it skyrocket.
I've never heard a recommended range.
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
How much topping off are we talking about? I think that's actually relevant to the TDS discussion. I can understand the TDS concerns argument if it's a daily issue. So we need to know what is "too fast" to you. Are you having to top it daily? How big is the tank and how much do you need to add?
Now that it's warmer I have to top off my 90g a few times a week and I'm showing an upswing in my TDS; I'm having to do larger water changes to compensate for this to get my TDS back down to the value I want.
That said, just get a lid
Now that it's warmer I have to top off my 90g a few times a week and I'm showing an upswing in my TDS; I'm having to do larger water changes to compensate for this to get my TDS back down to the value I want.
That said, just get a lid
J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
Even smaller changes than this will work. I find about 20-25% or so is enough to effect change. A small midweek and a weekend just about do for normal tanks. Like you say, when it gets a bit high, double up every 4-5 months. That is a +1 from me.
(Normally I give a good bit extra to each tank at least once a year, depends if it needs more or not)
It's quite difficult to change TDS down, you need lots of new water. Even more if your base source is already laden with dissolved solids (tap water)
It creeps up easy enough though. I think there is a significant change in water every 015ppm TDS. To dilute you need more pure water per unit the further away from your start point if that makes sense? For example 116 TDS is neutral almost 50:50 but 86 TDS soft/low Kh is pretty much 10:1. 100 TDS is about 5:1 mix ratio. (That's my old blend of tap/RO cut, ratios will vary according to source water)
The lower your TDS the faster it rises, this is partly why soft water tanks are always little and often to maintain that desired low level, basically pure water can pull TDS from the atmosphere so it will always rise. The purer the water the greater it's capability of absorption. (Simple test, leave pure 000 water in a vessel overnight in the open, +24hrs re-test, you will observe TDS creep)
It would most likely be falling if you keep up with your top ups, Kh and calcium get depleted rapidly among other things, using TDS in a reef is not really worth it, for example, my puffer tank is in SG 1.006 which is I think 5230 TDS, that's 6 gram per litre, a reef is 1.024, that's 24 GPL, to use the measure of something in the range of 20,900 TDS? Not sure never measured it, the overwhelming abundance of TDS here makes the test pretty much pointless. Salinity is a better test. Then specific tests for individual elements you wish to monitor.
Check your filter, if it replaces calcium with sodium it may be unsuitable for fish, some can't handle high sodium, or so I understand it.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Interesting post. I've wanted to talk about this in a bit more detail. Maybe start an off topic thread on this?
I have a few questions regarding this and wanted to start a new research topic but this seems like a good a place than any to ask a few since you have more experience with this.
I agree it would be pointless measuring SW TDS. What I was kinda getting at is if you were religious with the salt concentration and there were no other dissolved solids then you would expect the TDS to measure the same. If you had a meter that measure that high if you know your salt concentration doesn't change and you now add TDS in to the mix you would know how much of that is TDS. If you TDS is increasing and you keep your Salinity steady then you could see if and by how much TDS was rising provided you recorded the results.
My other questions would be how effective are plants at controlling TDS?
You mention atmosphere and tap water TDS but what about the things we add on a regular basis? Fish food, fertilisers. These all add to TDS right? Top offs would only make it worse.
I was toying with the idea of cutting my tap water slowly say every 3 months to keep on too of it.
How many people measure or are even aware of this. Is it effecting our fish slowly? Just because the look ok doesn't mean they are not slowly having to use more and more energy to adjust to the slow rise in TDS?
Is TDS even that much of a big deal?
I'm not sure from your post whether or not you think it is or isn't J. I know you are very stringent with your water quality.
What do you think about it?
I have a few questions regarding this and wanted to start a new research topic but this seems like a good a place than any to ask a few since you have more experience with this.
I agree it would be pointless measuring SW TDS. What I was kinda getting at is if you were religious with the salt concentration and there were no other dissolved solids then you would expect the TDS to measure the same. If you had a meter that measure that high if you know your salt concentration doesn't change and you now add TDS in to the mix you would know how much of that is TDS. If you TDS is increasing and you keep your Salinity steady then you could see if and by how much TDS was rising provided you recorded the results.
My other questions would be how effective are plants at controlling TDS?
You mention atmosphere and tap water TDS but what about the things we add on a regular basis? Fish food, fertilisers. These all add to TDS right? Top offs would only make it worse.
I was toying with the idea of cutting my tap water slowly say every 3 months to keep on too of it.
How many people measure or are even aware of this. Is it effecting our fish slowly? Just because the look ok doesn't mean they are not slowly having to use more and more energy to adjust to the slow rise in TDS?
Is TDS even that much of a big deal?
I'm not sure from your post whether or not you think it is or isn't J. I know you are very stringent with your water quality.
What do you think about it?
J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
Simply put, TDS is a big deal but it isn't a solution to a problem. Too many things make up TDS for it to count. It's quick accurate and cheap, that's all.
I wrote the list of factors in TDS before, on our last thread that went a bit sideways
, there are many things involved.I'm fairly sure plant additives count, liquid fertiliser. My 120litre planted tank is higher TDS than source but the breakdown of GH/Kh is the same. The only difference I see is I add a daily/weekly dose of trace elements for plants. Otherwise all other materials are the same, I mean no nitrogenous waste. The water has seen biological activity but as far as I can guess (measure with a test kit) it is clean and is unchanged from source. Normally it rises 002-010ppm daily but this tank is consistently 010-015 higher. I compensate for this (I let it slide and do nothing about it, I can't "see" any problem other than a slightly different reading.
Anything that can dissolve in water is a contributory factor to TDS.
86tds, soft/low Kh3, 140tds hard alkaline. Kh6
Also
140 TDS could be pure water, RO with 000 reading and nothing but calcium.
This is why I disregard a TDS (stick measure) as nothing but a quick glance providing you know the make up of your source water.
"Water is a good solvent and picks up impurities easily. Pure water -- tasteless, colorless, and odorless -- is often called the universal solvent. Dissolved solids" refer to any minerals, salts, metals, cations or anions dissolved in water. Total dissolved solids (TDS) comprise inorganic salts (principally calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, bicarbonates, chlorides and sulfates) and some small amounts of organic matter that are dissolved in water."
Copied from the dreaded "net" this text is available everywhere.
TDS meters are accurate if you calibrate them to high or low ranges, depends what you want to use it for. In salt water salinity is a more critical measure, refractometers I think are the popular choice for accuracy.
To half the TDS in your tank you would need to add about 50% 000 TDS water.
Not a good move!
Even if you want to change from 120 to 086, using 086 water @10% daily you will be 2-3 weeks changing water on 110 litres. (Hope that helps)
I have been wondering on this if I should get a TDS meter or if it will be just another gadget that I use for two months (didn't help that my parcel this month was a phosphate test kit).
I'm thinking of getting one as still puzzled why I was getting platy deaths after water changes in DT. The sole survivor is in QT and getting 90% water changes each week which also drop the temperature from 25C to 20C. There have also been some dodgy mollies in there which have come good. Normally I don't like pwc's that size but fish seem fine. Temp not an issue. There is zeolite and carbon in the filters but they have been there for months now so shouldn't be doing much. So I was thinking of getting a TDS meter but wondering what TDS is made up of minerals wise and if gh/kh test will mostly cover it?
I'm thinking of getting one as still puzzled why I was getting platy deaths after water changes in DT. The sole survivor is in QT and getting 90% water changes each week which also drop the temperature from 25C to 20C. There have also been some dodgy mollies in there which have come good. Normally I don't like pwc's that size but fish seem fine. Temp not an issue. There is zeolite and carbon in the filters but they have been there for months now so shouldn't be doing much. So I was thinking of getting a TDS meter but wondering what TDS is made up of minerals wise and if gh/kh test will mostly cover it?
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Simply put, TDS is a big deal but it isn't a solution to a problem. Too many things make up TDS for it to count. It's quick accurate and cheap, that's all.
I wrote the list of factors in TDS before, on our last thread that went a bit sideways
I'm fairly sure plant additives count, liquid fertiliser. My 120litre planted tank is higher TDS than source but the breakdown of GH/Kh is the same. The only difference I see is I add a daily/weekly dose of trace elements for plants. Otherwise all other materials are the same, I mean no nitrogenous waste. The water has seen biological activity but as far as I can guess (measure with a test kit) it is clean and is unchanged from source. Normally it rises 002-010ppm daily but this tank is consistently 010-015 higher. I compensate for this (I let it slide and do nothing about it, I can't "see" any problem other than a slightly different reading.
Anything that can dissolve in water is a contributory factor to TDS.
86tds, soft/low Kh3, 140tds hard alkaline. Kh6
Also
140 TDS could be pure water, RO with 000 reading and nothing but calcium.
This is why I disregard a TDS (stick measure) as nothing but a quick glance providing you know the make up of your source water.
"Water is a good solvent and picks up impurities easily. Pure water -- tasteless, colorless, and odorless -- is often called the universal solvent. Dissolved solids" refer to any minerals, salts, metals, cations or anions dissolved in water. Total dissolved solids (TDS) comprise inorganic salts (principally calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, bicarbonates, chlorides and sulfates) and some small amounts of organic matter that are dissolved in water."
Copied from the dreaded "net" this text is available everywhere.
TDS meters are accurate if you calibrate them to high or low ranges, depends what you want to use it for. In salt water salinity is a more critical measure, refractometers I think are the popular choice for accuracy.
To half the TDS in your tank you would need to add about 50% 000 TDS water.
Not a good move!
Even if you want to change from 120 to 086, using 086 water @10% daily you will be 2-3 weeks changing water on 110 litres. (Hope that helps)
Yes with respect, I know what TDS is I'm just wondering how it affects our fish. I know how effects the fish if the parameters fall out of their evolved range. I'm just trying to figure out whether this is something we need to worry about. I do mean to change the water slowly. I wouldn't change out half of the water with RO I'd do it over time. I guess there is no answer at the moment other than it's probably not something to get too bogged down in if the change is gradual.
I'm going to buy a TDS meter just out of curiosity. A lot of people that keep plants don't pay too much attention To substrate maintenance. This must contribute also.
J.Mcpeak
Aquarium Advice Addict
I mean no disrespect, you should know that by now!
I hope this doesn't end up going all bandy! (Wonky, askew, off the rails etc.) bandy!Here goes,it would affect the fish differently each time depending on the composition of the TDS. (That's it in a nutshell)
If it's all calcium, not much good. If it's all bicarbonate, not much good either.
Example,
You can achieve 100 TDS water that is all of one or the other or an even mix of both.
If TDS is the make up of the water it is important.
The letters TDS by themselves mean very little unless you already know that
x TDS = whatever make up.
To say 001 TDS is important is silly.
Fish live in water, water is among other things TDS although TDS is not water. (That's simplified I know, move on)
I think TDS is important because it is basically a good idea of the waters change. Ive said this before, it's the difference from source. A point from which to deviate, but is unusable for anything other than a guide and you must know the make up of the start water for it to be of any use.
A side note, 001 TDS can make a subtle difference over time, if say you want 100 TDS in a tank, you keep adding water but not exactly 100, all of those 001 points that are not important all of a sudden are causing you problems, high Kh GH or whatever it is. Then an off-set mix goes in to re-acquire your target.
If you just add water to make maths of it you will lose,
(tried and tested, thank a deity for the pH test kit)
for example,
100tds in tank it rises to 120 so you add water at 80 continually for six months, then your tank swings because the Kh/GH go out of line because your not adding water at the correct TDS, you are adding water to achieve a TDS reading. So a big lot of water over a few days to restore the figures.
Am I answering this correctly? Or have I gone astray?
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
I mean no disrespect, you should know that by now!
Here goes,it would affect the fish differently each time depending on the composition of the TDS. (That's it in a nutshell)
If it's all calcium, not much good. If it's all bicarbonate, not much good either.
Example,
You can achieve 100 TDS water that is all of one or the other or an even mix of both.
If TDS is the make up of the water it is important.
The letters TDS by themselves mean very little unless you already know that
x TDS = whatever make up.
To say 001 TDS is important is silly.
Fish live in water, water is among other things TDS although TDS is not water. (That's simplified I know, move on)
I think TDS is important because it is basically a good idea of the waters change. Ive said this before, it's the difference from source. A point from which to deviate, but is unusable for anything other than a guide and you must know the make up of the start water for it to be of any use.
A side note, 001 TDS can make a subtle difference over time, if say you want 100 TDS in a tank, you keep adding water but not exactly 100, all of those 001 points that are not important all of a sudden are causing you problems, high Kh GH or whatever it is. Then an off-set mix goes in to re-acquire your target.
If you just add water to make maths of it you will lose,
(tried and tested, thank a deity for the pH test kit)
for example,
100tds in tank it rises to 120 so you add water at 80 continually for six months, then your tank swings because the Kh/GH go out of line because your not adding water at the correct TDS, you are adding water to achieve a TDS reading. So a big lot of water over a few days to restore the figures.
Am I answering this correctly? Or have I gone astray?
I don't think so. I know that changes in TDS are not good for fish and I know all about how they regulate change and what happens to soft water fish in hard water and hard water fish in soft (wild of course)
I think when I have my TDS meter and I know what my TDS is kh and gh (as I've never measured it then I can continue on from there.
I know that TDS is of importance and I know that tampering with water to achieve certain parameters can cause more harm than good.
Basically, if my water is changing I want to know about it and what it is doing to my fish.
MartyMA
Aquarium Advice Activist
Plastic wrap
The original question was a simple one - my solution is glass top for starters and a if you have an HOB filter, stretching a piece of plastic wrap over it. I do this to keep the amano shrimp from taking a walk but it also cuts down on evaporation significantly.
The original question was a simple one - my solution is glass top for starters and a if you have an HOB filter, stretching a piece of plastic wrap over it. I do this to keep the amano shrimp from taking a walk but it also cuts down on evaporation significantly.
