water temp @ 96.8 - how slowly should I bring it down?

[hbeth82]

Just stopped by to feed my boyfriend's fish found that all three tiger barbs and Mikey the synodontis floating at the top, the salvini and convict both hiding. Thermometer read 96.8, wavering into 97. I did 25% PWC with cool (not cold) water, and that brought it down to about 91. I've unplugged and removed the heater, turned off the lights, opened the lids a bit, and am floating a small bag of ice. Also removed 5 or so gallons of water hoping that the lower water levels will help the HOB filters better oxygenate the water. Right now the temp is at 88.5.

Is there anything else I can do? How quickly can I safely lower the water temps, like X degrees in 30 minutes? I know 5 or so degrees in 10 minutes isn't good but kind of panicked.

Still have to tell the boyfriend also

 

[JohnPaul]

Sounds like the heater broke (in the "on" position) so whatever you do, don't put the heater back into the tank under any circumstances!

It sounds to me like you did everything correctly. Now that you have the temps lowered to something that is at least borderline reasonable for tropical fish, I would simply keep the lid off (unless the fish are jumpers, in which case you probably can't do that) and let it naturally cool down by slowly equilibrating with the air around it at room temperature. No more ice. Keep the water level lowered to help with aeration until you have the tank back down to near its normal temperature.

Your boyfriend has you to thank--surely everything in the tank would have been dead if you hadn't come by and taken the quick action you did.

 

[taylorodw]

Those things will all help, so good job. Honestly although I've never seen a study on how quickly fish can adapt to temperature change, most people recommend to go very slow and steady.

For cooling down the tank, I like to open the lid and point a fan across it. This brings the temp down at a rate the fish can handle.

With no heater honestly it won't be too long before the temp goes down even further so I'd let the tank cool naturally, or with a fan only, while you work on replacing that heater.

Does the heater have a light? Was it still running?

Edit: JohnPaul posted as I was typing with some good advice, I agree.

 

[hbeth82]

Thanks, it really helps to know that at least I didn't make things worse. Yes, also very thankful that I stopped by, typically don't but knew he hadn't gotten the convict to eat yesterdays so I thought I've give it a try. I've taken out the bag that had been ice and am leaving the lids open - with the water level down a few inches, I doubt either of the remaining fish could jump out but the convict has hit the lid a time or two so not going to risk it.

Thankfully I think I have a spare heater somewhere and it looks like we're expecting decent weather the next few days, hopefully they'll be okay for a week or so. Wish I knew what had gone wrong with the heater (nope, no light unfortunately), it was a Marine Land stealth and I thought they were supposed to be pretty good.

Water temps now down to 85.3 and the two fish are still moving and seem to be okay, so I'm feeling a bit better, though still dreading the talk.

 

[BigJim]

I don't know how quickly fish can adapt to temperature changes, but they're hardier than a lot of people give them credit for. I usually try to drop my tank temperature 3-5 degrees F to simulate rainfall when I do a water change and I've been rewarded with panda cory and praecox rainbow fry, so I don't place a lot of importance on matching the temperatures to not stress out the fish.

You've done good things so far. You could set a fan up to blow across the top of the water. I've heard of a few issues recently with the 300W Stealth Pro heaters, but nothing with the regular Stealths. Give Marineland a call and they should replace it for you.

 

[hbeth82]

I've heard of a few issues recently with the 300W Stealth Pro heaters, but nothing with the regular Stealths. Give Marineland a call and they should replace it for you.

Thanks, I'll suggest that to him. I think it is one of the Stealth Pro heaters, though could be wrong about it being 250W. His is about 18 or so months old, a version that doesn't have the light on the dial.

I remember reading a while back getting more powerful heaters, 4-5W / gallon, has been known to cause problems like this (read about somebody who came home to the smell of boiled salmon). If his was 250-300W for a 50gal tank, do you think this could be what happened?

 

[thincat]

Yes, more then likely the heater stuck in the on position. If you have a powerhead point it up toward the surface to get as much reaction there. When the temp goes up the Oxygen level of the water goes down. I think that is what JP said.

 

[BigJim]

In theory, you could use a 1,000,000W heater on a small tank if it has a good thermostat and small changes in temperature. The problem you experienced arises when the thermostat craps out. For some reason, the majority of heaters fail in the "on" position, resulting in the fish stew you found.

The maximum tank size on a heater rating is supposed to be the largest tank the heater can heat without exceeding its duty cycle. I think the minimum tank size listed is there to smooth out temperature fluctuations. I suppose a larger heater could heat the water too quickly.

You could use an external heater controller and set the heater thermostat a few degrees warmer than the heater controller. Heater controllers are usually a little more robust then the heater thermostat, but even if the controller fails, the thermostat provides a secondary shutoff.

 

[JohnPaul]

Unlike filtration (where you can never have "too much,") when it comes to heaters you very much can have "too much" precisely under the circumstances that happened here--because for whatever reason, when heaters break they tend to break "on" and if you have a heater that is larger than what your tank needs, it can really jack up the temps really high.

The general rule of thumb, I believe, is to use a heater about 5W per gallon. So a 50W heater on a 10g tank. Though some of the newer heaters are even more efficient, which means you need less wattage. For example, I actually have an unopened Marineland Stealth heater sitting here next to me with a chart on the back of the packaging listing the wattages and tank sizes. It says that the 50W heater is enough for a 15g tank, to raise the temp up to 18°F above room temp. Which is really efficient heating. But it also means that, if I have this heater in a 10g tank and it breaks "on," then it is likely going to send the tank temperature pushing 100°F. I actually have one of these in a 10g tank right now but part of me knows that this is "too much heater" and is a disaster waiting to happen.

One way to avoid this, especially on larger tanks, is to use two smaller heaters rather than one really big one. Basically look at the wattage/tank size chart and buy two heaters (each one half of the wattage) and put them at opposite ends of the tank. If one of them breaks "on," it is not going to be able to raise that much water hot enough to be dangerous to your fish. And on the flipside, if one of them breaks "off," then the temperature of the tank won't plummet either since there will still be at least one working heater in there.

Something to think about, especially if Marineland doesn't give your boyfriend a free replacement heater. Or if they are willing to, perhaps he could talk them into sending two smaller ones instead.

EDIT: went back and re-read and saw that we are talking about a 50g tank. According to the chart, the Stealth 150W is for tanks up to 45g, and the Stealth 200W is for tanks up to 55 gal. Now again, those sizes are able to raise the water up to 18°F above ambient room temperature. Assuming the most he needs to do (even in winter) is raise the water temp 8-10°F above room temp max, then a 150W Stealth heater is probably plenty. Or, if he wanted to do the two heater trick, he could get two of the 100W's (or heck, probably two of the 75W's) and he would be in fine shape.

 

[thincat]

BigJim, A 1,000,000 W heat would have increments of 1,000 dergrees...For a 10g....not even in theory...

 

[Mark Hewitt]

A 1,000,000W heater would put out so much heat that by the time the water got to the thermostat end of it, it would have already vaporised the entire tank, and probably your house too

 

[BigJim]

It all depends on how well-controlled the heater the heater is. There's no reason it couldn't have control granularity of 1 degree or even half a degree. You could also control it with PWM so the heater is on, but nowhere near full power. Besides, it's only theoretical.

 

[Joey2619]

I would definitely get that thing out. I woke up last year in a pool of sweat to see all my fish dead at the top of my tank. Water temp was 120.7degrees... I called the manufacturer of the heater and they wanted me to write them an deposition on what happened so they could refund me the money for the value of all my stock. Heartless bastards.

I learned to not purchase junk heaters again, but unfortunately my fish had to pay the price. I think it was a "Tetra" heater if my mind serves me right.

 

[hbeth82]

I called the manufacturer of the heater and they wanted me to write them an deposition on what happened so they could refund me the money for the value of all my stock. Heartless bastards.

You're right, can't blame them for valuing money but then they shouldn't bother to pretend they care about the welfare of animals. Think the warranty for this Marineland heater says that they won't pay for any "incurred losses" from using their product, but Mikey wasn't an "incurred loss", he was a really cool fish who shouldn't have died that way. Still feel awful about it. Was really sad looking at the tank this morning, especially since the 2 survivors still won't come out of hiding much.

As for the replacement heater, it sounds like the best way to go would be to see if Marineland will replace this 250W with a 150 or 200W. Seems like they would, since a cheaper replacement would save them a bit but we'll see. Or maybe switch to 2 x 100W. Are there any better / safer heaters in the same price range?

 

[Joey2619]

You're right, can't blame them for valuing money but then they shouldn't bother to pretend they care about the welfare of animals. Think the warranty for this Marineland heater says that they won't pay for any "incurred losses" from using their product, but Mikey wasn't an "incurred loss", he was a really cool fish who shouldn't have died that way. Still feel awful about it. Was really sad looking at the tank this morning, especially since the 2 survivors still won't come out of hiding much.

As for the replacement heater, it sounds like the best way to go would be to see if Marineland will replace this 250W with a 150 or 200W. Seems like they would, since a cheaper replacement would save them a bit but we'll see. Or maybe switch to 2 x 100W. Are there any better / safer heaters in the same price range?

Honestly, I'm not blaming them for making it a hassle to pay out, in fact, honestly, the money doesnt matter, however, the unfortunate way my fish had to die was unreasonable, but I guess **** happens. I had one of my angels for 7 years, I mean, the thing was gorgeous...

Any ideas on any higher quality heaters?

 

[thincat]

I can't tell you what heater to buy, but then again I would earge you to complain. That is the only way a product can improve on itself.

 

[hbeth82]

I can't tell you what heater to buy, but then again I would earge you to complain. That is the only way a product can improve on itself.

Understand that, thanks. Guess some of the frustration is because when we got these heaters (have the 200W for my 75gal turtle tank & 150W for 55gal community), understood that Marineland was supposed to be one of the best in this price range, but I guess it's inevitable that several fail and as others have said, this one just happened to fail in the "on" position. Hoping that Marineland will be willing to replace it with a 150-200W.

As a side note, any idea how long it might take the fish who survived this to recover? They've both been in hiding since Thursday afternoon, and we're not sure whether it's because all the ditherers are gone or the stress from that one day, or if something else might be wrong. At least one of them is eating, not sure about the other. Lights are still off.

 

[WhiteDevil]

You can take some of that water and a thermometer and ice down the tank to get it down slowly. A fan is your best bet along with a few air stones because at that temp the water has little if any O2 left in it.

 

[MarkA123]

Id get another marineland stealth heater, I have a 150w and it's never failed. You said yours was an older model, and didn't have a temp dial or light, hopefully they'll give you the newest model, instead if the older model you have.

 

[WhiteDevil]

Its the newer models that have the problem not the older ones.

Ive got a 150w 3 year old stealth pro and it works just fine still like yours.