Shell-Dweller advice needed!

[Fishperson]

Hello AA!

This will be long, so please bear with me. Any help is appreciated!

Now, I'll get right into it: I have a 20 gallon tall tank (24 x 12 x 16 inches L x W x H) that is currently planted. Unfortunately, I don't like the planted aspect of the tank because I'm simply bad at caring for them. The tank, as it was, had very little potential. So I'd like to turn it into a shell dweller tank. I have three different concerns: maintenance, set up and stocking.

Maintenance
I know how to maintain a tank, but I don't know what the extra duties of a shellie (shelly?) owner are.

My city's water report says the pH is 8.4, but my ambiguous API master test kit says my tap is somewhere between 7.6 and 8.4. I think 8.0 is a safe estimate.

My TDS is 150, and my hardness is 28 ppm.

My tap nitrate levels are below 5 ppm.

I plan on feeding fish flakes, freeze dried brine shrimp, or sinking cichlid pellets, whichever is best (probably a combination). I'd rather not keep live food. I do plan on buying frozen bloodworms.

1. Do I need to add anything to act as a buffer for my pH, or is it fine as-is?
2. Do I need to add any additive or chemical to raise my pH or hardness?
3. Do I need to stir the sand around to prevent anaerobic pockets, or will the fish themselves do that?
4. Are there any other special considerations for shellies?

Set up
I plan on getting some really nice rock and having a pile on the far left and another smaller one around 2/3 of the way to the right. There will be some shells (probably 2 per each shellie) in the middle, spread out to the sides. I assume that the fish will do some redecorating with the shells anyway.

I'm planning on using escargot shells, I think those are what most people use.

As for sand, I've narrowed it down to white play sand, silica blasting sand, or crushed coral/cichlid sand. I think it will be some combination of play sand and crushed coral. It's my understanding that the crushed coral buffers the water well.

5. How many shells per fish would you recommend?
6. What are the advantages to each time of sand (just some brief info would be great)?

Stocking
At this point, stocking is my largest concern. The focus of the tank will obviously be the shellies. I think I'll have multies (Neolamprologus multifasciatus). I've narrowed it down, I think, to 3 options:

Option 1: Simply multies! A harem of multies, and that's it. I think one male and the rest females or maybe 2 males? Or I could start with 1 male and ~3 females and let them breed and populate the tank (I'll remove the excess fry and sell them in that case).

7. How many multies could I have in this case? I'd like to keep a low bioload if possible.

Option 2: A harem of multies and a centerpiece fish. Probably 1 male, 3 females, and some fish that won't be too aggressive towards them and will be a nice addition to the tank. I'm considering the masked Julie (Julidochromis transcriptus). My only concern for this option would be that the shellies would get aggressive while breeding, or that perhaps the centerpiece fish would attack the shellies.

8. What centerpiece fish are compatible with shellies?

Option 3: Dither fish! This is perhaps my favorite option. It would be exactly like Option 2, except instead of a centerpiece fish a centerpiece school of bright, peaceful, tolerant fish. They would hopefully inhabit the upper part of the tank, which the shellies usually avoid. I'm thinking Rasbora heteromorpha, the harlequin rasbora, or perhaps the Flame tetra (Hyphessobrycon flammeus), the Red Eye tetra (Moenkhausia sanctaefilomene) or the Diamond tetra (Moenkhausia pittieri).

9. Does anyone have any experience with these fish?
10. Are small schooling fish compatible with shellies?

Thanks for any and all information or tips you can provide!

 

[keegster803]

I wouldn't try Shellie's with anything else in that tank, and I'd say 4-5 shells per fish. I personally keep 8 shells per fish.


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[Freakgecko91]

Ok so I mostly skimmed cause that's a really long message, but...

Multies should be in a ration favoring more females to males. I would recommend 1 male, 4 females, and let them do their work.

Shells: 4-5 PER FISH, whether they use them or not. Good shells include escargot, turbo snail, whales eye

Multis do NOT do well with any fish in a tank under a 40 breeder typically. It can be done, I have proof in a 20 long, however, the tank was and is a pain to balance and maintain harmony. If you're new to shellies, just keep it to a species only.

Rock is up to you. I use texas holey Rock in mine, but that's to help me to develop territories and keep my shellies out of one side of the tank. Shellies really only require sand and shells (again, don't skimp on the shells)

Also, they don't just move a little sand around, they move A LOT of sand around. Rock can be dangerous in a multi tank, especially if you don't put egg crate under the sand. I'd personally suggest no rock, as it only takes space away from shells and digging space. Each female will require her own territory

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[Fishperson]

Ok, that sounds good.

I heard from somewhere that you only need 1 shell per fish, so I figured I'd go over that number. 4-5 per fish it is then!

Just out of curiosity, what would be the issue with non-shellie fish in this tank? pH problems, or agression?

And yes, sorry about the long message.

 

[sinibotia]

Ok, that sounds good.

I heard from somewhere that you only need 1 shell per fish, so I figured I'd go over that number. 4-5 per fish it is then!

Just out of curiosity, what would be the issue with non-shellie fish in this tank? pH problems, or agression?

And yes, sorry about the long message.

Aggression. They are nasty little fish! I tried keeping a bristlenose pleco with them (one of the few fish that people have suggested could be kept with them) and they killed him within a span of two weeks. Honestly, I don't think I would attempt any other fish in a 20 long. My tank is a 20 high, and they still go quite far up into the tank (Maybe 3/4 of the way up, outside of feeding time)

My recommendation is aragonite sand- it buffers the water, which they really like.

My multis love flakes, and I also really like them because it gets the multis out of their territory and onto more even footing- sinking pellets end up in someone's shell or another and so you can end up with one multi getting all of the food. All of my multis go to the surface for flakes in a slow, cautious, simultaneous rise before darting up to grab flakes, it's so fun to watch.

You're gonna love multies- I set up my multi tank 6 months ago, and they're my first african cichlids. They're already among my favorite fish I've kept of all time! Full of spunk and attitude, and they breed like rabbits!

 

[Freakgecko91]

Multis fiercely defend their shells. I like to call them the chihuahuas of the cichlid world, cause if they were the size of some of the centrals, they'd be extremely nasty.

My 20 long has:
7 multis
6 lophiobagrus cyclurus (dwarf tanganyikan bullhead cats)
1 Spathodus erythrodon "burundi" (her mate died recently)
1 bristlenose pleco (need to move, it fights with my cats)

I don't recommend this set up, it has been crazy trying to balance it


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[Fishperson]

That sounds good then! Just multies it is.

I'll poke around different stores to look for sand. Aragonite and crushed coral are on the top of my list right now. I also plan to get some cichlid pH buffer which will also raise my hardness I think. And I'll get a dH test kit because I definitely need to be sure that I raise it over 10 dH.

 

[TheresaM]

I've keep multies, brevis, occies, etc. In my opinion you can never have too many shell!

This is a 10g where I bred multies:

 

[sinibotia]

That sounds good then! Just multies it is.

I'll poke around different stores to look for sand. Aragonite and crushed coral are on the top of my list right now. I also plan to get some cichlid pH buffer which will also raise my hardness I think. And I'll get a dH test kit because I definitely need to be sure that I raise it over 10 dH.

Honestly, if you get aragonite/coral sand, I wouldn't worry about hardness at all. My multis have done flawlessly with just moderately hard tap water and aragonite sand. Getting pH buffers and such can cause more problems than they "fix". The hardness test kit is a great thing to have, so do get that!

 

[Fishperson]

Honestly, if you get aragonite/coral sand, I wouldn't worry about hardness at all. My multis have done flawlessly with just moderately hard tap water and aragonite sand. Getting pH buffers and such can cause more problems than they "fix". The hardness test kit is a great thing to have, so do get that!

Sounds good, thank you! It will make it a lot easier for me I'm sure.

Now my last question is just how many fish I'll end up with, as I'm sure they'll breed. I think I will start with 1 male and 4 females. After they breed though, what will happen? Will another harem form, of maybe another male and 3 females? Will I have to remove all of the other fry? Or will they just form a colony of fish without aggression problems amongst each other?

 

[sinibotia]

Sounds good, thank you! It will make it a lot easier for me I'm sure.

Now my last question is just how many fish I'll end up with, as I'm sure they'll breed. I think I will start with 1 male and 4 females. After they breed though, what will happen? Will another harem form, of maybe another male and 3 females? Will I have to remove all of the other fry? Or will they just form a colony of fish without aggression problems amongst each other?

So, from my research, they'll form a colony with the adult fry being allowed to stay in the general vicinity. In my experience this has been true but my oldest fry are still quite young. However, I have 24 (or so! counting that many fish is hard) in a 20 gallon high, and 14 of those were what I started with- all of them were young when I got them; they were siblings in another tank and they've all settled pretty well into the limited bottom space of this tank (I actually have rocks in the back so it's only maybe 2/3 the bottom space of your 20 long)

So you'll probably not have territory problems, or at the very worst they're a LONG ways off (you'll get 10-20 fish per brood or so and the fry are very slow-growing).

 

[Fishperson]

So, from my research, they'll form a colony with the adult fry being allowed to stay in the general vicinity. In my experience this has been true but my oldest fry are still quite young. However, I have 24 (or so! counting that many fish is hard) in a 20 gallon high, and 14 of those were what I started with- all of them were young when I got them; they were siblings in another tank and they've all settled pretty well into the limited bottom space of this tank (I actually have rocks in the back so it's only maybe 2/3 the bottom space of your 20 long)

So you'll probably not have territory problems, or at the very worst they're a LONG ways off (you'll get 10-20 fish per brood or so and the fry are very slow-growing).

Awesome, thank you so much! I didn't realize so many could be kept together.

everyone so much for all of this help!

 

[sinibotia]

Awesome, thank you so much! I didn't realize so many could be kept together.

everyone so much for all of this help!

I've read about people having several dozen in a 20 gallon tank! That was what made me decided I wanted them- they're truly colonial fish, not something you see everyday! I'm positive you'll love them, they're some of the most fantastic fish I've ever had the pleasure to keep.

 

[Freakgecko91]

Extra makes will generally be outcast and beaten, so they should be removed.


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[Fishperson]

I have a few follow-up questions. I bought black lava rocks today to set up as a centerpiece of sorts for the tank. It shouldn't take up too much room, and I will have lots of shells as well.

1. What kind of food do they prefer, in your experience? I have flakes and floating pellets as well as freeze-dried brine shrimp and frozen bloodworms. I think I will also buy small sinking cichlid pellets.

2. How many fish should I start out with? I'm thinking enough for 2 harems to form, so maybe 10-12.

3. Since I will probably be ordering them online or on a mass online retailer through a local store, I won't have anywhere to put the males that get 'rejected'. What should I do with them? I suppose I'll have to find some way to sell the fry, right?

 

[sinibotia]

I have a few follow-up questions. I bought black lava rocks today to set up as a centerpiece of sorts for the tank. It shouldn't take up too much room, and I will have lots of shells as well.

1. What kind of food do they prefer, in your experience? I have flakes and floating pellets as well as freeze-dried brine shrimp and frozen bloodworms. I think I will also buy small sinking cichlid pellets.

2. How many fish should I start out with? I'm thinking enough for 2 harems to form, so maybe 10-12.

3. Since I will probably be ordering them online or on a mass online retailer through a local store, I won't have anywhere to put the males that get 'rejected'. What should I do with them? I suppose I'll have to find some way to sell the fry, right?

1. The kind they can eat, lol. In all seriousness my multies eat literally anything I put in their tank if it fits in their mouth. Flakes, pellets, freeze dried anything, frozen anything, live anything. I have yet to find a food they wont eat. Hell, I've even seen them graze on algae.

2. Anywhere between 5 and 10 is probably good. I would lean towards 10. Keep in mind that no matter how many you start with you'll end up with a lot more.

3. In a 20 gallon long, you actually shouldn't have to worry too much if you start with 10 or less. In my 20 high, I started with 14 and had just one male get rejected- for about two weeks, and then before I could find him a place to go he snuck in somewhere and found a place. If you start with 10 or less and tons of shells you'll likely have room for everyone. And your LFS will probably happily take fry.

 

[Fishperson]

1. The kind they can eat, lol. In all seriousness my multies eat literally anything I put in their tank if it fits in their mouth. Flakes, pellets, freeze dried anything, frozen anything, live anything. I have yet to find a food they wont eat. Hell, I've even seen them graze on algae.

2. Anywhere between 5 and 10 is probably good. I would lean towards 10. Keep in mind that no matter how many you start with you'll end up with a lot more.

3. In a 20 gallon long, you actually shouldn't have to worry too much if you start with 10 or less. In my 20 high, I started with 14 and had just one male get rejected- for about two weeks, and then before I could find him a place to go he snuck in somewhere and found a place. If you start with 10 or less and tons of shells you'll likely have room for everyone. And your LFS will probably happily take fry.

Thank you!

It's actually a 20 high, I think I may have mistyped somewhere and said it was a 20 long. I'll probably start with 8 or so then. I don't want to buy too many.

The only issue I may have is that my LFS won't take them back. They have a provider online that sells to tons of stores. Basically they said that if they don't have a fish you want you can find in on that providers website and have them order it for you and sell it to you then. But since they don't normally carry it, I'm not sure they'll take it back. I'm going to talk to them soon anyway about giving away the fish that are currently in this tank (the ones in there now they do carry, so I'm sure they'll take them), so I'll find out then.

BTW, thanks so much for all of your help so far. It really means a lot considering this isn't a normal type of tank.

 

[Fishperson]

Time for a brief little update to this thread.

The progress on this tank is and will be slow. I don't have much time right now as school is just wrapping up and finals are coming up. I plan on emptying out the current tank, cleaning it, and adding the sand and rockwork on labor day weekend, May 25th. Until then I need to purchase a gH test kit, shells (i'm thinking 72, around 4-5 for each fish), the sand, and the rocks. So basically everything.

I have some black lava rocks but I now realize they are too small and I will need more. I'm still shopping around for those and lace rock.

These are the shells that I'm looking at. They have a great price and reviews say that they work well for multies: http://www.amazon.com/Roland-Extra-...id=1430275953&sr=8-1&keywords=escargot+shells

I compared prices for sand and I found aragonite oolite sand at a great price ($21 for 30 lbs). That's what I'm planning on getting. I also have about 2-4 pounds of leftover white sand from a previous project that I will be using. It is definitely aquarium safe. I think I will go with that sand and the 30 lb bag. It should be a good mix. I assume that oolite aragonite is the same as regular aragonite.

I'm shaky about the gH test kit. I looked online and couldn't find many. The stores near me don't seem to carry them, although I do need to look in a new one this weekend. The API one, I hear, doesn't work all that well. I read on a TPT article from a credible member (hoppy) that API and Redsea's gH kits aren't great, but the Tetra one is good. The only ones I found online by tetra were test strips, so I'm not sure if that's what he meant.

So the question is, which do you use/recommend, and do I really need one?

I plan on posting a build thread once I have made a few more purchases. I don't want to post it too early in fear of losing interest at my slow pace. I may not add fish until early June. This is my advice thread mostly.

 

[Freakgecko91]

I'd say you're going way more expensive than you need lol I use play sand in all my tanks, less than $7 for 50# from Home Depot. I've personally never been a fan of lava rock, it's super rough


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[Fishperson]

I'd say you're going way more expensive than you need lol I use play sand in all my tanks, less than $7 for 50# from Home Depot. I've personally never been a fan of lava rock, it's super rough


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Trust me, I'm not getting it because of the price I'm getting aragonite sand because of its pH and gH altering properties which help replicate the habitat of shell dwellers. My water is especially soft so I need this I believe.