Alk and Ca problems

[Biggen]

I have been battling Alk and Ca problems for the longest time and am finally at my wits end. I can't seem to correct the problem for the life of me. I now am in some need of help from you guys and gals...

Here is the deal, my alk is low. Way low. I just tested it this morning and it was around 5.5 DKH as measured with the Salifert Alk kit. My Ca actually wasn't too bad as it was around 390 ppm. Lately, its been my Alk I have had a hard time keeping up. The Ca seems to have stabilized as every morning it always tests at around 390 ppm.

This is what I have do every day to try and correct the problem:

Dose saturated Kalk via auto topoff
Dose 27 ml of each bottle of B-Ionic
Tested Mg and it comes out to around 1300 ppm as per Seachem Mg kit
Monitor pH to make sure it doesn't go above 8.4 or so that that abiotic precipitation doesn't follow

I can't figure out what the heck is wrong. I just can't belive that my tank is using this much Alk and Ca every day! The only thing I have a lot of is coralline algae all over the rocks. Although within the last two weeks, my coralline has been disapearing off the back glass. It is almost totally gone which I can only attribute to having chronic low levels of Alk and Ca. I do have one T. Maxima, Green horn, and one frag of pocillipora. Everything else is LPS and a few zoos.

I can correct the Alk problem with baking soda and push it up to around 9DKH. But then over the next few days it keeps falling even with all the dosing I do.

So I just don't know what to do anymore. It is extremely frustrating to know how to correct this problem, but for what ever reason, can not. I am going to be ordering new Salifert Alk and Ca kits here today as I am out of my Alk kit due to all of my testing the last month to try and correct the problems...

FYI, a few months ago, I experimented with adding 40-50 ml of each B-Ionic solution to see what happened. This is in a 40 gallon tank. It didn't seem to do anything. It raised the levels immediately, but then when I tested for them the next morning the Alk and fallen back down to ~6-7DKH and the Calcium down to ~390 ppm.

I am almost thinking I am losing all of this Alk and Ca due to Abiotic precip even though my pH doesn't appear to be going all that high and my Mg levels are fine. Although I just looked at my heater and I can still see the glass on it just fine. I haven't check any pumps yet. I do have a light brown slightly "crusty" coating on the sides and bottom of the sump. I am not sure if this is an indicator of a problem or just normal sump "wear and tear".

Help!

 

[douggiestyle]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
check out this link. it is so far the most straight forward article about Ca Alk that ive found to date. it dicusses your problem exactly. i use the chart each time i test Ca Alk levels.

 

[reefrunner69]

What salt are you using? A better alk buffer is a 6:1 dry mix of A&H baking sida (6 parts) and A&H washing soda (1 part), mix well, 1 level tsp mixed in a glass of cool R/O water per 20g tank volume to raise the DKH of the tank by 1. The baking soda alone will buffer the ph, but does little for the alk, from what I've read, although I might be off on that.

 

[Biggen]

Oh yeah, been there done that. The problem is holding Alk and Ca to the proper levels. I can move them around easily enough with B-Ionic and/or baking soda. But it seems like the next day just doesn't matter...

I can attribute the problem to one of three things:

1. Faulty Alk test kit
2. abiotic precipitation
3. Normal organism use (which it hard to believe)

 

[reefrunner69]

Can you have someone else double check the alk to rule out a bad kit?

 

[Biggen]

Can you have someone else double check the alk to rule out a bad kit?

I am going to the LFS today to get some snails. I will also take a sample of water with me to see what their kits read.

 

[douggiestyle]

im not sure where all your Ca and Alk is going each night. but levels seem balanced according to the charts which i linked to in an earlier reply.
your 5.5 DKH is = 2.0 meq/l on those charts you should only need to add a balanced additive. ive added in your test results to the chart as you can see. with a balanced addition you should fall right into the red section.

where are your maximum test results?

i aggree with kevin i would stay away from the bi-carb. i toyed with it trying to get Ca and alk at some perfect ratio. it only made matters worse.

 

[Biggen]

Thanks for the help!

My maximum levels when dosing Kalk and B-Ionic are ~8 DKH and a Ca of 415 ppm in the morning right after dosing. Like you said, its balanced, but its just hard to imagine that with the animals I have now, my Alk can drop 2DKH overnight and that is with using Kalk as 100% topoff.

Sodium Bicarbonate actually does raise the Alk but it does temporarily lower pH in a marine aquarium while Sodium Carbonate temporarily raises (substantially) the pH. The baking soda works for a few days and keeps it up there, but it doesn't last long.

It does point to normal organism use, but I just don't believe I have that many Alk and Ca demanding organisms in the tank. What happens when I started adding SPS?!?

Perhaps I need to look into using vinegar with Kalk...

 

[steve-s]

Part of your problem is also try to fix an imblanace with balanced additives. Contrary to what some may believe, only using one part of the ionic liquid will not properly raise alkalinity or calcium if used seperately. They are dependant on each other and will be affected by what amount each is added.

I would actually suggest getting two seperate additives. Personally I prefer Kent superbuffer DKH and Kent Turbo Ca. FWIW I use the two part liquids and kalkwasser for my chem needs but I would never use them to augment only one part of the equation. On my 90 gal I use 35 ml of each daily as well as 2 tbsp of kalk 3x/wk. Conversely on my 27, it only needs 5 ml 3x/wk and I do not use kalk.

Typically in a high Ca low alk balance, a higher Ca level will push down on alkalinity much faster than the reverse. If the balance was high alk low Ca, the alkalinity will more often be less affected by increased Ca additions while alkalinity levels are being maintained through seperate additions first.

Point being, stop trying to fix both at once. The Mg levels are sufficient and will allow a higher alk to come up. Using a seperate buffer, slowly over the next few days, get the alk level upto about 4.25 mEq/l. Make sure the Mg is maintained as it will tend to precip slightly in a higher alk environment. Once the alk is in the proper range, use the Turbo Ca to bring the Ca into balance. Usually slightly more daily Ca is needed than normal but not much. The higher alk environment will also reduce/prevent abiotic precip to a certain degree.

Once alk is optimal, add the buffer daily to keep it there (best done in the early AM) and then a few hours later (or even better after work) add the Ca 1/8 to ¼ teaspoon at first and then test the net result and increase the Ca as needed in safe amounts. If alkalinity is maintained first and the Ca is added after, it will prevent the Ca additions from forcing the alk down again. Once they are back in balance you can return to the normal routine.

Make sense

Cheers
Steve

 

[douggiestyle]

The higher alk environment will also reduce/prevent abiotic precip to a certain degree.

yes it is not what the two are separate but what they are together.
i often think "oh my alk is low" or "oh my Ca is low" when actually when i put the two together and place it on that chart i fall right in the middle of the red zone. steve posted a link a few months ago here it is.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/index.htm
its a tuff read but the charts are awesome. they show the many different variations of "balanced" Alk Ca pH

 

[Biggen]

Steve,

I have Seachem's Reef builder which is basically Sodium carbonate and bicarbonate. You are suggesting that I should use that and only that for a few days to boost up my Alk to around ~10DKH or so? Then when that is up there I should then begin dosing CaCl to bring the CA level up to balance with an alk of 10DKH?

Then when I have both levels where I want them, I should begin supplementing with Kalk and/or B-Ionic and continue to add the reef builder and CaCl as needed

Seems like a lot of testing. I thought the whole point of using Kalk and/or B-Ionic was to take the place of using the single additives. When the Alk and Ca levels are balanced out, why could you not simply use Kalk or B-Ionic to maintain the levels 100% of the time?

 

[steve-s]

Steve,

I have Seachem's Reef builder which is basically Sodium carbonate and bicarbonate. You are suggesting that I should use that and only that for a few days to boost up my Alk to around ~10DKH or so? Then when that is up there I should then begin dosing CaCl to bring the CA level up to balance with an alk of 10DKH?

Yes, getting the alk in place first will make it much easier to gain a balance between the two. At least in the beginning until they are balanced I would bring the alk closer to 12 DKH. Personally I keep mine between 11-12 all the time. Keep in mind that you need to be sure the alk is optimum before each Ca addition.

Then when I have both levels where I want them, I should begin supplementing with Kalk and/or B-Ionic and continue to add the reef builder and CaCl as needed

Correct!

Seems like a lot of testing. I thought the whole point of using Kalk and/or B-Ionic was to take the place of using the single additives. When the Alk and Ca levels are balanced out, why could you not simply use Kalk or B-Ionic to maintain the levels 100% of the time?

While trying to get them balanced again yes, there will be extra testing. Once balanced you will be able to test as normal. I generally test every second week to be sure the chem remains balanced. As far as the balanced additives maintaining, they will not since the two parts in the tank are typically not used in a balanced fashion. Balanced additives are definately much easier to help keep chems in the right "range" but that does not mean the chem in the tank will remain balanced permanantly. Each weeks consumption will be slightly different than the last. Some weeks after testing you may only need to augment one part of the equation, not both in order to gain balance.

Cheers
Steve

 

[douggiestyle]

steve
are you sure his alk is low?
according to this chart (randy holmes-farley) his Ca is a bit low.

Ca/Alk
360/0
390/1.5
400/2.0
410/2.5 (seawater)
420/3.0
430/3.5
440/4.0
450/4.5
460/5.0

600/12 (possible CaCO3/CO2 Reactor Effluent)

 

[steve-s]

steve
are you sure his alk is low?
according to this chart (randy holmes-farley) his Ca is a bit low.

If based soley on the 390 ppm Ca, then his alkalinity is actually too high. I was under the impression Biggen wanted a higher alkalinity on the whole In which case the Ca can be balanced later on.

Cheers
Steve

 

[douggiestyle]

ok.
its good to know were on the same page.

 

[Biggen]

Sorry for my delayed responses today guys, its been busy...

Yes, getting the alk in place first will make it much easier to gain a balance between the two. At least in the beginning until they are balanced I would bring the alk closer to 12 DKH. Personally I keep mine between 11-12 all the time. Keep in mind that you need to be sure the alk is optimum before each Ca addition.

Ok, starting tomorrow I will begin dosing the Reef Builder. Looking at the instructions, it says that one level teaspoon will raise 40 gallons of water by .25 meq/l. It then says that I can adjust the dose up to, but not exceeding, 1 meq/l a day. Since my tank is around 40-50 gallons (with sump), then I could dose 4 heaping teaspoons a day which would increase the Alk to around 2.8 DKH per day.

Keep in mind that you need to be sure the alk is optimum before each Ca addition.

What does this mean? Do you mean I need to make sure my Alk is around 4-5 meq/l before adding any CaCl and if it is not I need to dose the Reef Builder again before adding the CaCl? Would I be able to dose the Reef Builder and CaCl in the same day? The reason I ask is because the Alk will drop some in a 24 hour period. If I keep having to wait to dose the CaCl because I am constantly raising the Alk, I will never be able to dose the CaCl. Make sense?

If based soley on the 390 ppm Ca, then his alkalinity is actually too high. I was under the impression Biggen wanted a higher alkalinity on the whole In which case the Ca can be balanced later on.

The Alk reading I gave was not 5.5 meq/l but 5.5 DKH. That is pretty darn low. But yeah, it is high if looking relative to the Ca reading of 390 ppm as far as being balanced.

 

[steve-s]

Keep in mind that you need to be sure the alk is optimum before each Ca addition.

What does this mean? Do you mean I need to make sure my Alk is around 4-5 meq/l before adding any CaCl and if it is not I need to dose the Reef Builder again before adding the CaCl? Would I be able to dose the Reef Builder and CaCl in the same day? The reason I ask is because the Alk will drop some in a 24 hour period. If I keep having to wait to dose the CaCl because I am constantly raising the Alk, I will never be able to dose the CaCl. Make sense?

As you already pointed out the testings going to be a pain in the butt. What I meant was be sure the alkalinity is in the right range in the morning and if not add buffer. Later on in the day you can then add the CaCl without affecting the alk.

Until you get the alk up to the correct level, leave off the CaCl, it will just impair your progress until the alk is up and stable.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Biggen]

As you already pointed out the testings going to be a pain in the butt. What I meant was be sure the alkalinity is in the right range in the morning and if not add buffer. Later on in the day you can then add the CaCl without affecting the alk.

Until you get the alk up to the correct level, leave off the CaCl, it will just impair your progress until the alk is up and stable.

Gotcha!

Ok, thanks Steve and Douggie for the much needed help. I'll work on the problem and report back in a week or two to see how I did.

 

[f-dean]

wow nice posts so I can use or not use baking soda as bupher I bought seachem ph3 and the aragomilk should I take them back, I test for Kh but do not test for calcium alone, I have a GH test but understand this is not tested in saltwater. Do I need seperate calcium test kit.

I just bought a master test kit. If any one wants my old kit ill give it away for shiping cost it is the powder, from aquarium systems came with instant ocean 55 gal tank.

 

[douggiestyle]

hey i maybe should have mentioned earlier that i to have the missing Ca Alk problem. i have only one lps. the rest are softies. but i do have a lot of snails and coralline but virtually no coralline on the glass. i do not use Kalk or any other additives other than calk (red seas balanced additive, its only in one part and its a powder, i would highly recommend it so far) yet my Ca Alk keeps dropping without any noticeable abiotic precipitation. i believe its the snails and the coralline. i realize that your setup is different, and having never used lime water and two part additives i cannot comment on whether or not your situation is normal. but you are definitely not alone in your line of questioning.