3 months in and frustraited!!!

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Josh Jennings

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
36
Location
Georgia
Hello, this is my first post so I hope I'm in the right place.

My 60 gallon tank has been running for 3 months and the NO2 levels are up and down all the time. I have lost several fish and am becoming frustrated seeing that I have spent close to $200 trying to straighten things out following the advice from Petsmart employees.

Here is what I've been doing...

Weekly 20% water changes using Stress coat to Dechlorinate my tap water & aquarium salt. I start by "stirring" my tank, and then dipping out 12 gallons and replacing it. I then take out the filter sponge, carbon packet, and a packet of what looks like coral balls. I wash all that and replace it. This is what I was told to do by Petsmart.

My Ph is off the chart low, the water is off the chart soft, and the Alkalinity is off the chart low.

The NO2 has been the problem and I have used Ammo lock to protect my fish. I have never had a NO3 problem.

Currently my fish are ALL at the surface gasping for air. They are all well colored and all eat well.

Again Petsmart told me that when I see this I should make a 6 gallon water change and use stress coat and Ammo lock. Which I do but it only fixes the problem for a while.

Here's what's in my tank...

Lamp Eye Tetra
Red Minor Tetra
Diamond Tetra
Rio Tetra
Blue Rainbows
Neon Tetra
Cory catfish
Buenos Airs

What am I doing wrong??? What should I do??
 
Josh Jennings said:
Hello, this is my first post so I hope I'm in the right place.

My 60 gallon tank has been running for 3 months and the NO2 levels are up and down all the time. I have lost several fish and am becoming frustrated seeing that I have spent close to $200 trying to straighten things out following the advice from Petsmart employees.

Here is what I've been doing...

Weekly 20% water changes using Stress coat to Dechlorinate my tap water & aquarium salt. I start by "stirring" my tank, and then dipping out 12 gallons and replacing it. I then take out the filter sponge, carbon packet, and a packet of what looks like coral balls. I wash all that and replace it. This is what I was told to do by Petsmart.

My Ph is off the chart low, the water is off the chart soft, and the Alkalinity is off the chart low.

The NO2 has been the problem and I have used Ammo lock to protect my fish. I have never had a NO3 problem.

Currently my fish are ALL at the surface gasping for air. They are all well colored and all eat well.

Again Petsmart told me that when I see this I should make a 6 gallon water change and use stress coat and Ammo lock. Which I do but it only fixes the problem for a while.

Here's what's in my tank...

Lamp Eye Tetra
Red Minor Tetra
Diamond Tetra
Rio Tetra
Blue Rainbows
Neon Tetra
Cory catfish
Buenos Airs

What am I doing wrong??? What should I do??

First off you can change more than 20% of water at a time. I do weekly 50% in both my tanks. Second don't wash your filters with new water. Old tank water only in a bucket. Don't replace the media until its literally falling apart. All your beneficial bacteria grows in your media do you are in a perpetual cycle if you keep replacing it or cleaning in tap water. What are your ammonia nitrite and nitrate levels?
 
Well do you have a liquid test kit? Could you post the results here?
You should do 50% water changes at least once a week.
Did you cycle your tank before putting fish in?
What are the exact numbers of all those fish? They should be in schools, and if each of those fish are in a school of 5+ you are overstocked, by a lot.
Do you vacuum 50% of the grave, during the water changes?
 
Ok... I use a master test kit which I got from Petsmart. I did cycle the tank before adding fish. I did so by getting 3 fish and letting the tank run through the cycles. The NO2 spiked then dropped then the NO3 did the same, then everything leveled out and the water cleared up. Then we began adding fish slowly following Petsmart employees advice. I don't Vacuum the tank I Stir it the Petsmart folk said a vacuum was a waist of $. All I needed to do was stir the tank and let the pump/filter do the rest. I have a pump that is good for a 100 gallon tank. Below are the #'s of the fish which again was ok'ed by the pet store.

3- Lamp Eye Tetra
4- Red Minor Tetra
5- Diamond Tetra
5- Rio Tetra
3- Blue Rainbows
11- Neon Tetra
13- Cory catfish
4- Buenos Airs Tetra

Any suggestions???
 
Any suggestions???

I'd start by ignoring most if not all of what a Petsmart employee tells you, unless you know the specific person personally. Most of the time they are only there to make you purchase things.

You need to get a siphon and vacuum your gravel whenever you do your weekly water changes. I vacuum out 1/4 of the gravel every water change in my tank.
 
Josh Jennings said:
Ok... I use a master test kit which I got from Petsmart. I did cycle the tank before adding fish. I did so by getting 3 fish and letting the tank run through the cycles. The NO2 spiked then dropped then the NO3 did the same, then everything leveled out and the water cleared up. Then we began adding fish slowly following Petsmart employees advice. I don't Vacuum the tank I Stir it the Petsmart folk said a vacuum was a waist of $. All I needed to do was stir the tank and let the pump/filter do the rest. I have a pump that is good for a 100 gallon tank. Below are the #'s of the fish which again was ok'ed by the pet store.

3- Lamp Eye Tetra
4- Red Minor Tetra
5- Diamond Tetra
5- Rio Tetra
3- Blue Rainbows
11- Neon Tetra
13- Cory catfish
4- Buenos Airs Tetra

Any suggestions???

If you could post what your readings actually are we can help more. If your nitrates are too high it will kill fish.
 
bevoholic said:
I'd start by ignoring most if not all of what a Petsmart employee tells you, unless you know the specific person personally. Most of the time they are only there to make you purchase things.

You need to get a siphon and vacuum your gravel whenever you do your weekly water changes. I vacuum out 1/4 of the gravel every water change in my tank.

I agree most people at those stores don't have a clue. Definitely the last place I'd take advice from.
 
I will post them later on tonight. I'm not at home. But on the test results ( the plastic card with colored blocks) the Ph was below the smallest reading and so were the Alkalinity and softness of the water. The NO 2 level was in the stress range and the NO3 levels were in the safe range. That's what I remember from the colors but exact numbers escape me. I'll retest later on tonight and post the results. Thanks so much for the help!!!

Ps. This 60 gallon tank was a birthday gift for my 2 year old daughter and my 4 year old don who share a birthday so thanks for the help of getting things worked out.
 
Josh Jennings said:
Weekly 20% water changes using Stress coat to Dechlorinate my tap water & aquarium salt. I start by "stirring" my tank, and then dipping out 12 gallons and replacing it.

Bad advice. A more "proper" way to do maintain your tank would be to get a 5 gallon bucket from home depot or lowes and only use it for your aquarium. Don't put anything in the bucket you wouldn't put in your aquarium. Then get a gravel vacuum siphon. I extended my siphon by removing the clear hard plastic tube and replacing with a long piece of 2"pvc so I can vaccum the substrate without having to get elbow deep. On your 60 gallon tank, you will want something at least 20" long.

Place the pipe end of the siphon in the tank and suck on the hose end until you see water flowing down the tube. Quickly take the end of the hose out of your mouth and put it in the bucket. Let gravity work. You may need to turn off your filters beforehand depending on the amount of water you are removing so that the motors don't run dry. Each bucket-full will be 5 gallons. On a 60 gallon tank you probably have closer to 50 or 55 gallons of water depending on how much substrate or rockwork/decorations you have. You can estimate each bucket to be 5% of the volume of the tank.

When you vacuum the gravel you don't need to remove the gravel or stir the gravel up. Let the substrate stay put. If you stir it up you release mulm, nitrates, and nastyness. Let the gravel be. It is not necessary to stir up or remove. All you need to do is to place the end of the pipe within an inch or half inch of the top of the gravel and any waste will be sucked up.

When you have removed the amount of buckets you desire fill your bucket up with water from your tap with water that is of a similar temperature of your tank. If you are only replacing 5% the temperature of the new water won't make much of a difference. Once the bucket of new water is filled add your salt (API aquarium salt or Morton Ice Cream Salt (what I use in my planted tank) add one tablespoon of salt to each 5 gallon bucket. Only add salt when changing water, not replacing water due to evaporation. Then add 10-20 drops of Seachem Prime to the bucket.
Side note: It is best not to add chlorinated/untreated water directly to the tank. If you do you need to treat the entire volume of the tank with dechlorinator, not just the water you added. This can get expensive and wasteful, as well as the fact you are exposing your tank and fish to chlorine and chloramines.
Stir with a dowel or long stick you have for aquarium purposes. Pour the bucket full into the tank and repeat to replace the amount of buckets removed. Once you replace all the water you siphoned out and still need to add more water fill another bucket and treat with prime. It is not necessary to add salt (or anything else) to this bucket.

IMO, Seachem Prime is the best and only water conditioner you need. At 2 drops per gallon it lasts forever. It is much cheaper than using stress coat and better. It removes chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals, neutralizes ammonia (which is produced by the removal of chlorine and chloramine) as well as nitrites. It can be used in an emergency to neutralize nitrates. It also has something for the fishs' slime coat, like stress coat claims.

Josh Jennings said:
I then take out the filter sponge, carbon packet, and a packet of what looks like coral balls. I wash all that and replace it. This is what I was told to do by Petsmart.

It sounds like you have an aquaclear filter or something similar with three stages of filtration. The filter sponge is the mechanical stage and filters out large particals. The carbon is the chemical stage and absorbs impurities from the water. The coral balls are most likely the biological stage and harbor the aerobic bacteria that converts the ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. Your filter sponge will harbor the bacteria as well. If your filter doesn't have one, add some fine floss/polishing pad to remove small particals that aren't caught by the coarse sponge.

You don't normally need to do anything to your filter. Especially not with each water change.

When flow through your filter slows, take the sponge and floss out. I would replace the floss and rinse the sponge with old water that is sitting in the 5 gallon bucket before you dump it. Give it a few squeezes underwater and it will be good to go.

The carbon will only work for approximately 2-4 weeks before it maximizes out its absorbtion capabilities and will have to be removed or replaced. If old carbon is left in for a while it will leech phosphates into your tank which contribute to algae problems. Many people do not run carbon. I do in my cichlid tank but I have no chemical filtration at all in my planted tank.

NEVER EVER EVER rinse your ceramic or coral balls. If they absolutely need to be cleaned give them a quick dunk in the bucket of old tank water. Don't ever expose them to chlorinated water. Don't let them dry out. You want the bacteria on these balls to grow and thrive. Cleaning them is the main cause of your problems.

Josh Jennings said:
My Ph is off the chart low, the water is off the chart soft, and the Alkalinity is off the chart low.
Are these the parameters of your tap water? If so, unless you are trying to keep specific plants or fish, such as discuss, you will need to buffer your water. If you have very little alkalinity you have no buffering capacity and your tank will be subject to large pH swings. Simple baking soda can solve this problem.

Experiment by testing your tap water. Increase the kH of your water by adding 1/4-1/2 tsp per 5 gallons of water. 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda will increase your kH by about 2 degrees. Play around until you get the desired results. Then add that amount of baking soda to each 5 gallon bucket of water you replace along with your salt and prime.

Josh Jennings said:
The NO2 has been the problem and I have used Ammo lock to protect my fish. I have never had a NO3 problem.
Your cycle is being interupted and the bacteria needed to convert NO2 to NO3 are being killed before they can become established.

Josh Jennings said:
Currently my fish are ALL at the surface gasping for air. They are all well colored and all eat well.
Sounds like ammonia/nitrite poisoning.

Josh Jennings said:
Again Petsmart told me that when I see this I should make a 6 gallon water change and use stress coat and Ammo lock. Which I do but it only fixes the problem for a while.

Here's what's in my tank...

Lamp Eye Tetra
Red Minor Tetra
Diamond Tetra
Rio Tetra
Blue Rainbows
Neon Tetra
Cory catfish
Buenos Airs
You can change as much or as little water as frequently as you like and is necessary to have a clean tank. 5% a day, a week, or more. I rarely do more than 50% at once, and if you do you need to be careful not to shock your fish with the new water. But a 60 gallon tank, unless you have a dozen of each of the fish you listed, would probably maintain low nitrate levels with weekly 5% or 10% water changes. Once your tank is cycled you won't need the ammo lock, in fact I'm not sure ammo lock protects against nitrite, but only ammonia. It seems like your problem is ammonia, so I don't know that the ammo lock is even doing anything beneficial. It isn't hurting though.

Josh Jennings said:
What am I doing wrong??? What should I do??
Just follow the directions above and you will have a nice, hassel free tank very soon. If you would like to speed up the creation of the biological process buy some Seachem Stability and add it to your tank based on the entire 60 gallons. You can add it directly to the tank. Follow the directions on the bottle, but it only needs to be used until you have Ammonia and Nitrites at 0 and Nitrate production. You won't need it with each water change.

Good luck.
 
I agree with the other posters, you should do a larger weekly water change, at least until you get your cycle under control. I would do a 50% waer change weekly, or split it up and do a 25-30% water change twice a week.
If you don't have one, get a siphon/gravel vaccume. Use it to do your water changes, and vaccume about 1/2 of the gravel each time. (pick a side of the tank, and do the opposite side the next time).
Also, do NOT rinse your filter media in tap water. You should only be rinsing the sponge, never the bio-balls. Rinse the sponge weekly in the water you just removed from the tank, never rinse the bio-balls or carbon. Just replace the carbon once a month or so, and only replace the sponge when it is basically starting to fall apart. The filter media is what contains most of your beneficial bacteria, so when you take it all out and rinse it, you are killing off that good bacteria, keeping your tank endlessly cycling. Also, I would get rid of the ammo lock, if you do your water changes and don;t overfeed, you shouldn't need that.
Also, you should invest in a good test kit, drops not strips. Most people prefer the API Masters kit. It is a worht while investment, and will last you a loooong time. Test your levels weekly, most importantly the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. A fully cycled tank should read zero ammonia and nitrite, and between 5-20ppm. I would consider testing a few times per week until those levels are reached.
I am also going to recommend you go to your local petsmart and pick up a bottle of Tetra Safe Start. Get the larger bottle (for up to 75 gallons), shake it up well, and pour the whole thing in your tank. I have done this for all 3 of my tanks, one of which was stuck in an endless high nitrite cycle, and it has worked wonders. It is basically a bottle of bacteria, and really helps get that beneficial bacteria growing. It is a little pricey, but worth every penny in my opinion. I have easily cycled 3 tanks, including my new 50 gallon, and not lost a single fish.
Best of luck to you.......once you get your water parameters doign alright, you should have a very enjoyable tank!
 
I agree with some of the things posted here but not all. First, ditch the strips (or save them for emergency use only) and invest in a good liquid test kit. What your actual numbers for anything is really unknown here, especially for ph/kh/gh- strips simply are not accurate. I would not touch messing with ph either until you have an accurate idea what ph/kh/gh actually read. You may not actually have an issue with this. A gravel vac will be a must because after 3mths, you likely have quite a mess built up in your gravel and its likely contributing to your toxin levels.

In the future, I would also skip the salt use once your tank is cycled- it really is not necessary ina fw tank. Right now though, the salt is probably the only reason your fish are even still alive with high nitrite levels but your going to need to start doing water changes frequently (atleast 50%) to keep any ammonia and/or nitrite at or below .25ppm. Your fish's behavior (gasping at the surface) indicates serious water quality issues without knowing your parameters (which will help us alot, btw). Amm-lock will NOT help with nitrite issues-only ammonia issues. A good water conditioner such as Prime or Amquel Plus are the only products available to help with both ammonia and nitrite (and nitrate). It would be worthwhile to invest in one of these until your tank stabilizes.

As has been mentioned, do not rinse your media in tap water or throw it away- swish it some used tank water when necessary to clean it. I honestly would not touch it until your tank is stabilized. Replacing the carbon once its used up simply is not necessary. It will just serve as additional real estate for your good bacteria. Nor will it leech anything bad back into your tank.

I am probably missing a zillion other things here but you need to start by bringing your toxin levels under control with water changes asap for the sake of your fish. This may multiple big water changes in one day and/or every day until things stabilize. Just make sure you temperature match and properly condition all new water. Please check out the linik below as well and do not hesitate to ask any questions!

I just learned about cycling but I already have fish. What now?! - Aquarium Advice
 
Thanks so much got all the great advice! I plan to follow it and let y'all know how it goes. To answer the earlier question as to what the water numbers were/are her are current numbers tested with a Freshwater Master Test Kit by API...

PH = > 6.0
High Range pH = > 7.4
Ammonia (NH3/NH4+) = 0.25 ppm
Nitrite (NO2-) = 0 ppm
Nitrate (NO3-) = between 5.0 & 10 ppm.

Again thanks for the info! I'll let you know what happens.

As for the baking soda I have been warned that I can kill my fish easily and not to attempt altering pH that way. What do y'all think?
 
Thanks! Your numbers are not bad but the ph is bit concerning. You dont need the high range ph test right now, just the regular ph test. If its measuring at 6, this means it may be 6 or much lower becuase 6 is the low limit for this test. Can you please do a simple test for your tap? Test it straight out of the tap & see what it reads. Then set out a container of tap water with an airstone/bubbler. If you dont have an extra,just give the water a good stir every so often to help release dissolved gasses. Check the ph in about 24hrs. Let us know what both numbers read and we can further advise you on how to stabilize it without having to resort to chemicals.
 
What your actual numbers for anything is really unknown here, especially for ph/kh/gh- strips simply are not accurate. I would not touch messing with ph either until you have an accurate idea what ph/kh/gh actually read. You may not actually have an issue with this.
I agree. My prior instructions were assuming that once you had confirmed that your water has very low alkalinity/no buffering capacity you could add sodium bicarbonate to your water. There are other products out there as well that do a good job, but why pay extra when you can buffer your water for practically free?


In the future, I would also skip the salt use once your tank is cycled- it really is not necessary ina fw tank. Right now though, the salt is probably the only reason your fish are even still alive
Many species of fw fish require a small amount of salt for optimum health. Not enough to effect the density of the water. It aids in osmotic & electrolyte balance. Many fish will not thrive in pure RO water. Also, salt is used to fight parasites such as ich. Keeping salt in the tank can help to reduce incidences of parasitic infection.

Replacing the carbon once its used up simply is not necessary. It will just serve as additional real estate for your good bacteria. Nor will it leech anything bad back into your tank.
Disagree. All activated carbon is not equal. Cheaper brands and different types of carbon do leech phosphates and ash. see here: Activated Carbon in the Marine Tank

Using old activated carbon as biological media is inefficient. Filter space is limited and if you are planning on not changing your carbon, then its primary purpose becomes biological media. In this case using something like eheim substrat pro or seachem matrix makes more sense.

The pores in activated carbon are too small to harbor beneficial bacteria and quickly become filled with the impurities they are meant to remove. The biologically effective surface area of activated carbon becomes only what you can see, effectively making it no more beneficial than using a non-porous aquarium gravel for your biological media. There is a reason that neither gravel nor activated carbon are sold as biological media.
 
Thanks so much got all the great advice! I plan to follow it and let y'all know how it goes. To answer the earlier question as to what the water numbers were/are her are current numbers tested with a Freshwater Master Test Kit by API...

PH = > 6.0
High Range pH = > 7.4
Ammonia (NH3/NH4+) = 0.25 ppm
Nitrite (NO2-) = 0 ppm
Nitrate (NO3-) = between 5.0 & 10 ppm.

Again thanks for the info! I'll let you know what happens.

As for the baking soda I have been warned that I can kill my fish easily and not to attempt altering pH that way. What do y'all think?

I don't understand your numbers. pH & High Range pH measure the same thing. The range of pH measured is narrow. There is no aquarium test kit to measure pH from 1 to 14. The range measured does not overlap. I believe High Range pH measures from 7.6 to 9.0 while low range is from 6.0 to 7.6 only one of them will give you the tank's pH. If you use the low range and the reading is 7.6, try the high range. If the high range says 7.6 as well than that is the pH of the water and you don't need to worry about it. Test it again and let me know what it says.

You won't kill your fish with baking soda. When dissolved in water baking soda has a maximum pH of 8.3. Once the pH is 8.3, adding more baking soda will only add buffering capacity (increase kH) and keep your tank from experiencing pH swings. However, to use as an alkalinity buffer it must be dosed regularly.

Keep in mind that while the baking soda wont kill your fish, rapid pH swings surely can shock them to death.
 
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