Eco complete users, I have some questions, please read

[FishN00b83]

I started a fishless cycle with 80lbs of Eco Complete 4 days ago. Already I am getting nitrite and nitrates coming up in my daily water testing. Have any of you had problems with your tank cycles? Have you experienced any bio filter crashes? I have realized that this substrate contains heterotrophic bacteria, and I'm conceded that the real autotrophic bacteria you need in the filter is going to be out competed for the ammonia. Can anyone share their experiences with this substrate?

Here's a link to my fishless cycle thread with my results:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/my-40b-fishless-cycle-log-165139-2.html#post1498723

 

[xwesx1978]

im 10 days into a fishless cycle with a 100 pounds of eco and im already getting nitrites i was kinda wondering the same things you are

 

[IvanMike]

heterotrophs won't want the ammonia/nitrites - they'll excrete it.

personally I don't use any products that are supposed to cycle your tank. the "good" bacteria are all around us. (so are the heterotrophs) I've cycled tanks by dropping in fish food and running the filters, and most frequently i add a bit of mature filter media from another tank i trust to be disease free. I haven't had a tank with detectable ammonia or nitrites in 20 years...

 

[eco23]

heterotrophs won't want the ammonia/nitrites - they'll excrete it.

Can you expand on that? Believe me, I'm against using heterotrophs to cycle and basically consider them a potentially dangerous marketing scheme...I've just never heard that statement. I've read that under certain circumstances they can actually revert the nitrogen cycle (going from no3 > no2 > ammo), but not that they simply would excrete no2 without consuming ammonia, etc... I think I know where you're coming from since heterotrophs can utilize other sources that true nitrifiers cannot and don't necessarily rely on ammonia or nitrIte as a food source...I'm just curious if you're referring to something different. In this case I think it's clear they are consuming ammonia and completing conversion based on the way the OP is having sharp drops in ammo and the quick appearance of no2 and no3
http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html

 

[IvanMike]

heterotroph is a catch all phrase for all sorts of organisms. (We are heterotrophs btw). Most heterotrophic bacteria happily make their way into your tank and consume uneaten fish food, fish feces, dead plants, etc. As such they end up excreting ammonia, nitrite, and a host of other stuff. OTOH, nitrosonomas and nitrobacter also happily make their way into your tank on their own and the former makes its living eating ammonia and converting it to nitrite, while the latter converts nitrite in to nitrate. - these are the "good guys", but without some ammonia and nitrite for them to eat, they die.

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Using bacteria just speed up a bit your cycle if you want your tank ready in 1 month, but not a must if you can wait for another month.

 

[IvanMike]

Using bacteria just speed up a bit your cycle if you want your tank ready in 1 month, but not a must if you can wait for another month.

True - but i've generally just seeded new tanks with exisiting filter media (loaded with bacterial colonies) - sometimes even a handful of gravel in a porous bag put in a filter in the place of some of the media. I've added a fish or three on day one and never had detectible ammonia or nitrite - and the bacteria colonies happily expand to cover the new virgin filter media.

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Thats the best but not everyone can have seeded media.

 

[IvanMike]

Thats the best but not everyone can have seeded media.

true - I've certainly given media to friends with tank issues. I'd be interested to google some stuff - given the ubiquitous nature of the bacteria we're talking - i bet they might be found in compost as well - there's a good chance (after research of course) that one might be able to take some mature compost, toss it in a nylon stocking, and throw it in the filter of a new unstocked tank (and maybe add some fish food) and if present the desired bacteria would colonize the filter. Modern tree work uses "compost tea" quite often to augment the edaphon. Outside of that - looking at wastewater management (which is where we get all of our filter technology for the most part) might also reveal some natural methods of seeding a tank.

Forgive me - I've never been a fan of bacterial supplements. Nitrosonomas and nitrobacter really dig oxygen, and i don't know the survival rate of their spores - but i'm willing to bet it's not awesome - simply basing this on how infrequently i've seen any of those products actually work.

 

[FishN00b83]

I think you guys missed the point of this thread completely

 

[severum mama]

I have used eco complete and a seeded filter pad to start a 55 gallon in the past. I didn't have any trouble. I started the tank with some tetras and a few days later, added some small discus that were given to me. I'll admit that I didn't test, but I didn't have any losses. I was doing frequent water changes though, since I was feeding the small discus heavily.

 

[FishN00b83]

My concerns are with the crazy readings I'm getting from my master kit. I am 5 days into the cycle and already im seeing nitrites - 5ppm, and nitrates - 80+. I dosed the ammonia at 4ppm on day one, on day 3 it was down to 2. After bringing it up to about 5ppm it hasnt gone down as of now, so I dont know what the heck is going on. I put some seeded media in the tank today, and hopefully with yours on wednesday, things will start to look normal. I have a fishless cycle thread going in the getting started section. I'll keep the updates to that thread.

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

true - I've certainly given media to friends with tank issues. I'd be interested to google some stuff - given the ubiquitous nature of the bacteria we're talking - i bet they might be found in compost as well - there's a good chance (after research of course) that one might be able to take some mature compost, toss it in a nylon stocking, and throw it in the filter of a new unstocked tank (and maybe add some fish food) and if present the desired bacteria would colonize the filter. Modern tree work uses "compost tea" quite often to augment the edaphon. Outside of that - looking at wastewater management (which is where we get all of our filter technology for the most part) might also reveal some natural methods of seeding a tank.

Forgive me - I've never been a fan of bacterial supplements. Nitrosonomas and nitrobacter really dig oxygen, and i don't know the survival rate of their spores - but i'm willing to bet it's not awesome - simply basing this on how infrequently i've seen any of those products actually work.

How many tank have you cycled with bacteria supplement??

 

[xwesx1978]

well i had a bio crash with eco complete , the tank was cycled converting 4ppm of no1 and no2 over in 24 hours and all of a sudden it just stopped , ph was a constant 7.0 , good thing i hadnt bought fish yet

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Thats the only case??
Theres a lot of factor that can crash a cycle!!

 

[eco23]

Thats the only case??
Theres a lot of factor that can crash a cycle!!

In fairness I can't validate or confirm anything as a third party, but over the last couple weeks there's been some very odd occurrences with Eco-complete. Some of these examples are massive amounts of conversion (4ppm ammo down to zero with no2 off the charts) within a couple days of beginning a cycle which IMO/E can only be explained by the heterotrophic bacteria contained in the substrate.

The common thread with this is that they are all recent occurrences, and the bags of Eco-complete now have a sticker on them saying "new and improved formula". Now if the new formula is a dramatic increase of heterotrophs compared to the previous bags...that's only something the manufacturer can answer for now.

As an assumption on my part though...the only plausible explanation I have for a cycle starting that instantly and dramatically followed by a sudden crash can only be explained (at this point) by a die off of the heterotrophs (which are of course short lived compared to true autrotrophic nitrifying bacteria).

I'm open to other ideas, but that's what's stuck in my mind at the moment. Obviously true nitrifying bacteria isn't going to colonize and begin conversion within 48 hours of a tank being set up without heavy amounts of seeded media.

 

[FishN00b83]

My tank with Eco complete finally settled down and now appears to be cycled. A lot of the readings at first we crazy. I threw in a bunch of seeded media and it seemed to calm it down a lot. After it dropped ammonia from 4ppm to 0 and the nitrites came down to 0 in 24 hours, I planted the tank. Now I'm just going to dose it for 2 weeks to make sure it doesn't crash on me.

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Thats impossible to validate but theres one thing i dont understand about heterotrophics bacteria that die!!
They can survive in a bottle for a years amd they die within couple of weeks when they have food and when they can reproduce instead of dying?!?(tank condition are a paradise, full of food and not much competition!!)

 

[eco23]

Thats impossible to validate but theres one thing i dont understand about heterotrophics bacteria that die!!
They can survive in a bottle for a years amd they die within couple of weeks when they have food and when they can reproduce instead of dying?!?(tank condition are a paradise, full of food and not much competition!!)

You're right, it's a lot more complicated than just "dying off". In fact that may be a generalization I've personally used which isn't 100% accurate...however it's a good summation.

First, the strains of heterotrophs used in aquaria are spore forming...so in reality, their life cycled doesn't even begin until they are introduced to water. Compared to autotrophs they are short lived and do not sustain themselves for long periods.

The heterotrophs directly compete with the true nitrifiers for surface area, oxygen and a food source. You'll see in the article I'm about to link, but heterotrophs colonize and begin conversion at a blindingly fast rate compared to the autotrophs...something like 4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696 to 11 in a 24 hour period. What happens is someone uses an instant cycling products or bacteria booster....then within a short time frame the tank appears cycled and stable...only to crash later.

From all I've gathered, the bio-filter crashes caused by heterotrophic bacteria are due to basically a false belief that a tank is cycled and stable, while in reality it is simply the heterotrophs colonizing, performing nitrification and going through their life cycle...while at the same time the true nitrifying bacteria haven't even gained a foothold since they colonize much, much slower and are also in direct competition.

Heterotrophs also don't really care for ammonia and no2, they much prefer organics they can turn INTO ammonia. So once organic debris starts showing up that they can use as a food source instead of ammonia...they basically change their diet. So that, plus the fact they are short lived equals a very rapid crash of what is considered a bio-filter...and since the autrotrophic bacteria has not fully colonized, there is not enough beneficial bacteria to continue the nitrogen cycle.

So yeah, I agree there's a lot more going on than it just dying off...but the same principle applies in many ways.

I also agree the eco-complete assumption can't be validated yet (unless you've got an older bag, a "new & improved" bag and a microscope sitting around), but it stands to reason that if the new version does contain a more powerful strain or higher amounts of heterotrophs and these occurrences that just started recently continue...it's definitely something worth considering as a cause.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html
http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/72-heterotrophic-bacteria.html
http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/71-autotrophic-bacteria-manifesto.html

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Not very sharp explanation and nothing really precise and no proof... Only vague comparison!

Try it on 50 tanks with the exact same water, treated the exact same way with the exact same PWC, with the same filter and heater, log your test every day.

Then ask the company for the fact sheet of the product and ask them to speak to their specialist to know what bacteria there using and they shhould tell you.

Then you will be up to tell in public that your better in biology/chemistry/enginering that people who create everything that make our hobby better and easier as the years goes.

I think its not the goal of this site to speak over our competense to make people buy or dont buy a product or a way to think, the goal is to help people, help with the best we try not only know!

Remember, nowdays we are able to have bottle bacteria, and yes the nitrobacter and nitrosomonas!! They can even have it powder form!!!

Have a good night!