A variation to the fishless cycle: will this work?

[rgrisoli]

I'm setting up a new 90 gal tank and I'm attempting a fishless cycle (see my post on "What comes first: Fish or Plants") My test kit has still not arrived yet and I'm impatient!! The tank is at my office and I'm lucky enough to have a friend down the hall with a 20 gal stocked with fancy goldfish - yea I know, two tanks in one office building - what a great place to work. She has graciously offered to give me some of her bacteria!! I've seeded my tank with a cup of her gravel. I've even moved a few of her decorations into my tank in hopes of spreading her wealth of beneficial bacteria. My question is: Should I occasionally rince her filter media in my clean tank or is that taking things too far?

If that is a good source of amonia or bacteria, how often could I put her filter material in my tank before I run the risk of putting her tank in a mini cycle?

I realize that this may be a non-traditional method. But I've read the article on fishless cycles and I'm uncertain where to find a source of pure ammonia.

Any thoughts are welcome.

Thanks

 

[Purrbox]

Using gravel and ornaments from her aquarium is known as seeding an aquarium with beneficial bacteria. Unless you already have fish or are adding ammonia to the aquarium that seeded bacteria is dying off. It's got to have a food source to stay alive. A good squeeze from her filter material would also be a good source of beneficial bacteria. Really just once to start should be enough, but again unless there is a source of ammonia (fish or pure ammonia) in the tank it won't matter how much you seed the aquarium the bacteria is just going to die off.

 

[rgrisoli]

Where can I find pure ammonia and how much and how often do you reccomend that I dose the tank? This is where I found the article on fishless cycles unclear.

Again, thanks for your replies.

 

[Purrbox]

I believe that I got my Ammonia from an Ace Hardware store. You should be able to find it at hardware stores and maybe some of the largers stores like Walmart. The key is to check that the only ingrediants are water and Ammonia. You can also do a shake test, if it foams up then leave it on the shelf. If theres any mention of scents, again leave it on the shelf.

The amount of ammonia to add will depend on the strength of the mix that you buy. You'll need to do some trial and error dosing to figure out the right amount. In a smaller aquarium I would probably recommend starting with 1ml doses, but in a large aquarium like yours I'd probably try 10ml and see where that puts me. Just go slowly so as to avoid adding too much, keep track of the amount you've added and the test results, make sure to let the ammonia disburse in the tank for probably an hour to ensure good test results.

If you still can't find an ammonia source in your area, you could always go with the raw shrimp method. Add large raw uncooked shrimp to the aquarium and as it rots, it will release ammonia cycling the aquarium. This method is rather messy and I have no idea how many shrimp you would need for that size aquarium.

 

[An t-iasg]

You could also order from a chemical supply business in your area. That's what I did. I ordered a 10% solution of ammonium chloride.

 

[rgrisoli]

Thanks gang!

 

[kribbman]

I understand the need to cycle a tank, But actualy going through the lengths of adding pure ammonia or dead raw shrimp just seems a little...far fetched... even though it might take more time but I would seed my tank get a few hardy fish and just wait a few weeks..Imagine sitting in your office or living room staring into a tank with 3 dead shrimp in it...your co workers o family will start to think somethings not quite right with you. lol..........

 

[tawolcott]

That's one perspective. The other is that some consider it somewhat inhumane to purposely subject a fish (any fish) to a toxic environment ("hardy" or not) when there are other options that fulfill the same end state.

You might find some coworkers, family or aquarists that start to think something is wrong with you for doing that.

But then again that's just my opinion. Kind of analgous to staying in your house while they tent it and fume it for termites. They 'say' it's probably ok but I'm guessing since it would be happening to you, you might elect to wait until the environment/home was suitable.

 

[marchmaxima]

I understand the need to cycle a tank, But actualy going through the lengths of adding pure ammonia or dead raw shrimp just seems a little...far fetched... Imagine sitting in your office or living room staring into a tank with 3 dead shrimp in it...your co workers o family will start to think somethings not quite right with you. lol..........

*looks at own cycling tank with raw pawn at the bottom*

It wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of being NQR... LOL

 

[tawolcott]

Good call March..
Gu-dey

 

[jsoong]

There is a third alternative ..... silent cycling using plant.

If you have LOTS of established plants, you will not need to go through a traditional cycle. So ... you spend few weeks getting your plants nicely established, then introduce the fish .... Your tank will still look nice with just the plants, and no fish is harmed.

 

[rgrisoli]

A PH question

Thanks for all the advice gang - that's why I'm here.

One more question: I got my test kit today and the ph of the tank is 8.0! directly from the tap is 7.4. I'm using pfs, rainbow rocks, and a piece of driftwood bought from a lfs. Will plants help to lower the ph to an acceptable level or do I need to think CO2. Again, I have no fish in the tank yet. I'm hoping to keep a peaceful community tank with a ph of aroung 7.0. How do you suggest I maintain a lower ph? RO water isn't really an option as the tank is at my office. I just read something about filtering with peat, but the article didn't elaborate too much on this.

Again, any advice is most welcome.

 

[Skyrmir]

You've probably already found a solution, but the easiest way to get ammonia is to put a shrimp or two in the toe of a pair of nylons and hang it in the tank. It's less unsightly and easy to clean up.

As for the ph, remove the rainbow rocks, and any other decorations with a gritty texture. Do a big water change and let it sit for a day then check again. It's still going to be 7.4 or higher if that's what you're putting into it, but you should be a little closer. A little mopani wood and some plants will help bring it down further if you really want to.

In general though, you never want to treat your water with anything but dechlorinator, and you don't want your tank to modify the ph either. The reason being every time you do a water change you'll be shocking the fish. Most fresh water fish, especially community type fish will accommodate a wide range of ph, as long as it stays the same.

 

[jsoong]

Plants don't lower pH (unless they are rotting .... not what you want) ....

The rainbow rocks (or maybe the sand) may be your problem. To test that theory, leave some tap water out for 24 hrs with & without rocks (sand) & compare the pH. <You can also do the vinegar test - if the rock bubbles in vinegar (or a stronger acid), then it is the problem.> If your rock/sand is causing the pH rise, you can either accept the higher pH (& acclimatize your fish to the new pH), or use different substrates. CO2 is a possibility as well. Peat filtering can be done, but getting stable pH may be tricky.

Generally, it would be better to accept a stable pH than to try to doctor the water. As long as the pH is stable, most fish can be acclimatize to the higer pH.

 

[kribbman]

I dont mean to sound sarcasic or anything, Its just that im rather new to the hobby and im still rather impatient when it comes to a new tank...I guess the fishless cycle has its merits and is indeed more humane for the fish, but at least in my limited experience ive found that fish are alot more resilient than one might think.. But you guys have a point and if i plan to get serious about the hobby i might as well look into all the options for establishing a tank.
But thanx for the feedback you guys/gals bring so much depth to the hobby.

What about setting up and seeding throwing some flakes in every day and after about a week adding a few strong hardy fish??

Also does tank size influence this?? Like for example is there such a need in a 50 75 galon tank or is it much more important in a smalller tank like 5 10 or 20 galons? I figure a larger tank can withstand much more contamination but at the same time take longer to cycle????

 

[Purrbox]

The unfortunate thing is that fish can and do suffer long term damage due to exposure to high levels of Ammonia and/or Nitrite. They may not show any outward signs of the injury, but they almost always lead a much shorter life than they would have normally.

Adding a few flakes (assuming you added sufficient quantities to start the cycle) for a few weeks and then throwing the fish in would just be exposing the fish to the worst part of the cycle.

With a larger aquarium if you stock it extremely lightly, you could minimize the risks to the fish, but at the same time it would take much longer to bring up your stocking levels as a result. The length of the cycle is the same reguardless, it's just a matter of how long it takes you to get to fully stocked.

My favorite means of cycling an aquarium is silent cycling. This involves heavily planting the aquarium with plants including lots of fast growing stem plants. After a week or two of letting the plants get settled in, you start slowly adding fish. If done correctly you never see a spike in either Ammonia or Nitrite. This is because the plants consume Ammonia and Nitrite as well as providing tons of surface area for beneficial bacteria.

Most serious aquarists quickly get to the point where they don't even have to cycle an aquarium again. Since they are able to use filter media from existing aquariums to start the new ones, they can get them up an running with little to no fuss. Many actually run spare filters on some of the aquariums so that they can quickly setup a new aquarium.

 

[meegosh]

I'm not going to harp on your for thinking about doing a cycle with fish because I cycled my 10 gallon with 2 zebra danios (I was impatient too!!) Boy was that a mistake... Keeping up with the water changes was quite a chore. Also, many overlook the fact that when you do a cycle with fish and do partial water changes daily, you are actually slowing the cycle down. It took me well over a month, and countless gallons of water, to completely cycle my tank with just 2 danios.

Just my opinion, good luck with your new tank!

PS - My zebras survived until I bought 3 red eye tetras nearly a year later and didn't QT them before.. they had fin rot

 

[kribbman]

Wow I realy didnt notice the significance of this till now, I guess the (they look fine to me) excuse isnt realy all that wonderfull. I guess I know what i would be doing with my next tank. And since we are on the subject I had a krib who died on me the other day while all his other tankmates looked fine. I added him to the tank after about 2 weeks of having started it up in other words in the middle of the cycle. this might have been the cause of his death.

 

[Wallygator]

I have a question regarding Skyrmir's post. He commented that you should never add anything to your water except dechlorinator. Does that include water changes? I know my tap water is high in ammonia. That may be beneficial to a fishless cycle but with an existing populated tank do you really want that extra ammonia dumped in?? I have always used Amquel when i change water and it never seemed to cause any harm. I am a somewhat seasoned newb so forgive me if I have some entrenched bad habits.

 

[marchmaxima]

That's a very good question! I have no idea of the answer so I am extremely interested in the response.

Wally, how many ppm of Ammonia is in your tap water?