Bio-spira effectiveness

[TeutonJon78]

So, now that bio-spira is back in stores, anyone have any luck with it?

I bought a 1 oz bag and split it between two tanks. A 10G with 3.5-4 ppm ammonia and a 12g with 2.5ppm ammonia. After 2.5 days, the levels haven't really changed all that much (perhaps a slight bit down). I bought it from the store not but 2 days after they got it in, kept it chilled on the way home and put it in the tanks right away.

Any advice or comparisons? I'm wondering if maybe with the huge stall in shipments if the effectiveness is lower because some have been in storage for a few months waiting to be packaged/shipped. If the levels haven't changed by Wednesday night (5 day mark), then I think I might try some Fritz Turbostart. People seem to have good results with that too.

 

[Medusa Head]

The product isn't intended to be used in a tank in "mid cycle" with existing levels of ammonia and nitrite. It is intended to be placed in a new tank with a full fish load from the start. It also needs medium to colonize, there should be 1-2 inches of gravel on your tank bottom and good bio medium in whatever filter you are using.

I would have bought two packets and put one in each tank.

 

[TeutonJon78]

I would think that having some ammonia in the tank would encourage more growth of the bacteria. It obviously wouldn't have knocked the levels down right away, but I expected a little more movement after 2.5 days.

And there is plenty of gravel and biomedia to grow on in the tanks.

 

[Pufferpunk]

The product isn't intended to be used in a tank in "mid cycle" with existing levels of ammonia and nitrite. It is intended to be placed in a new tank with a full fish load from the start.

Absolutely not true! I have used this product to repair 3 tank crashes, where the ammonia & nitrItes were off the chart. It does take 24-48 hours tro gobble up all the toxic ammonia & nitrItes in your tank. Always make sure to do a huge water change (up to 80%) before adding B-S & also that you have not been using any kinds of ammonia removing products beforehand.

 

[Gunnie]

I would think that having some ammonia in the tank would encourage more growth of the bacteria. It obviously wouldn't have knocked the levels down right away, but I expected a little more movement after 2.5 days.

And there is plenty of gravel and biomedia to grow on in the tanks.

If you put bio spira in a tank with fish and already high ammonia levels, it will catch up eventually, but maybe not in time to keep your fish from dying. You've got to remember that it is not only having to keep up with the ammonia constantly being produced by the fish, but also with all the ammonia already there.

Absolutely not true! I have used this product to repair 3 tank crashes, where the ammonia & nitrItes were off the chart. It does take 24-48 hours tro gobble up all the toxic ammonia & nitrItes in your tank. Always make sure to do a huge water change (up to 80%) before adding B-S & also that you have not been using any kinds of ammonia removing products beforehand.

If you had done the 80% water change before adding the bio spira, then your bio spira would have had a much better chance of keeping up, but that is not the way it is intended to be used. I have used it in emergency situations where ammonia was at toxic levels, and removed all fish from the tank, drained the tank completely, refilled it, and added the bio spira in just minutes before adding the fish back in. It worked absolutely perfect!

 

[Pufferpunk]

I think tank "rescue" is definately one of the intentions of this product.

 

[Mofo2713]

Maybe Bernie will chime in and straighten everything out for us?

 

[Fishalicious]

Im not trying to say anyone here is wrong or right because this product has obviously saved some of you from tank crashes. But when I was on the phone with a marineland rep last month, he told me that the product is absolutely not meant to be used in mid cycle or to sequester pre existing ammonia or nitrites (from cycling problems.) It is simply made for new tanks so you can have a full bio load from the start OR just to add to your current, problem free tank just for 'comfort' of ample amount of nitrifying bacteria being there.

Just my input and please "dont shoot the messenger" 8O \

-Dan

 

[Pufferpunk]

Someone should inform Marineland otherwise...

 

[Medusa Head]

Absolutely not true! I have used this product to repair 3 tank crashes, where the ammonia & nitrItes were off the chart. It does take 24-48 hours tro gobble up all the toxic ammonia & nitrItes in your tank. Always make sure to do a huge water change (up to 80%) before adding B-S & also that you have not been using any kinds of ammonia removing products beforehand.

I am not saying you can't use the product mid cycle nor am I saying it will not have any effect if you do. I am simply saying that using the product mid cycle is not its intended use.

Doing an "80% water change" before adding it is pretty close to using the product as intended.

 

[Fishalicious]

very strong point

 

[Bernie]

Hey folks.....

There are standard guidelines set forth for the use of this product.
See: http://www.marinelandlabs.com/cus_faq.asp#48

Having said that, it is certainly possible (and many have had) success with the product "bending the rules" as Pufferpunk suggests; HOWEVER...I would certainly
NOT recommend doing that.
I have had reports of people using it (successfuly) in a whole range of non-intended uses........ as I'm sure there are also failures.

Successful use of this product SHOULD be used as intended.

As for the case above here.....its like Gunnie mentioned; it probably needs some more time with such high ammonia levels at a starting point. Marineland (in the link above) clearly mentions that higher than normal levels of ammonia CAN BE
deterimental or cause slower than normal results in the use of Bio-Spira.

Hope that helps here.

Bernie

 

[TeutonJon78]

Bernie, maybe they changed the FAQ since the last time you read it. I know you've posted that link a few times, but unless I'm having some massive brain farts, the comment you are referencing is no longer there.

And I would think 4.5 days would be enough to see some movement in the ammonia level. which there hasn't been. The strangest part is the fishes dont' really seem all that stressed (with the levels in there, I would think they would be). Also makes wonder if my test (Aqua Pharm tube version), is being whacky. Ie, maybe I have lots of NH4 that isn't going anywhere, but the NH3 is being converted properly.

Has anyone used any of the NEW product successfully? I know people had lots of success with it before the re-release and was wondering if the same successes have been had now.

UPDATE: So I just checked, and the test kit I use is the salicylate style, so it would only get true ammonia. Wondering if the kit is bad. I'll check my nitrIte and nitrAte readings tonight. Maybe the tank is cycled and such.

 

[Bernie]

Actually, I review that link often...as they do try to update it periodically.

Here's what I was referring to:

Answer A: BIO-Spira® prevents toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite. Therefore, low concentrations in your tank are acceptable.

The KEY WORD is "low" concentrations!

Other reading throughout their explanations of Bio-spira use elaborate the point further. HIGH levels do, in fact, harm the viability of the newly added bacteria.
That's NOT saying that it won't work.....just that you run an increased risk of harming the bacteria and can therefore slow down its effectiveness!
I have posted time and again, that when using Bio-spira as a "tank correction for
existing non-cycled tanks with high ammonia and/or nitrites is a RISKY business;
such as in your case.

Bernie

 

[TeutonJon78]

I think you are somewhat misinterpretting the comment in the FAQ. I believe they are saying you might see some small amounts of ammonia and nitrite and that low levels are OK. NOWHERE on the FAQs or on the product manufacturing does it say anything about adding it to a tank with high (and what is "high" anyway) levels of either.

Granted, that isn't how it is supposed to be used, but it also seems they are avoiding any mention of it. Ie, they should perhaps say "if adding to an exisisting non-cycled tank, then do a massive water change and add".

The original point of this thread was also to see if anyone had any luck with the new batches of the product. If they've been building up product for 6 months and some of hte products have about a 6 month effective life span, then some of the ones that are getting shipped first could potentially be old product without much effectiveness.

 

[Bernie]

They feed the bacteria while in holding and in production in order to keep it fully
charged when shipped.

As far as your other point; Yes, I suppose you could read the "low concentration"
part in that statement either way; but it has been widely promulgated previously and in other reports that high levels are toxic to the bacteria itself.
When I have more time, I'll dig some up for you.

Bernie

 

[Menagerie]

From a strictly Biological stand point, you can harm ammonia and nitrite converting bacteria with high levels of ammonia and nitrite.

 

[poikilotherm]

Thanks for dragging my sorry butt back here, Menagerie!

I routinely grow bacteria at concentrations of ammonia that would kill just about any fish. Concentrations greater than 1000 ppm. No problem, they're happy. They're not Nitrospira, Nitrosomonas, or Nitrobacter, but they are denitrifiers, and are not dissimilar. I suspect that the Bio-spira is only specifed for use in a new tank because that's all it's tested for, and that's where it's the most effective. I suspect it could be quite effective in a crash situation unless there's something else wrong that is inhibiting bacterial growth (e.g. anaerobic pockets, dead fish, heavy metals).

Disclaimer: I haven't used Bio-spira, "I just do bacteria, genetic design, just bacteria..."

 

[TeutonJon78]

Ok...so another point is that bio-spira likes a pH of 7.8 to grow the best. So in a softwater acidic tank (which is what I'm aiming for eventually), what bacteria would work well in that? I can't believe that denitrification stops at 6.5 (although maybe for these species it does).