Fishless Cycle pH Question

[Jayann]

Hello! First let me apologize in advance as I am often long winded. I started a fishless cycle 3 days ago for a new 10 gallon tank. I am trying to create better living conditions for a single goldfish that my daughter decided to buy while in college and was originally living in a bowl. As a poor college kid, my pleas to have her create her own better living conditions for the fish were met by a purchase of a 2.5 gallon originally and an upgrade to a 5.5 gallon once she got a job. I have now made it my own mission to fund the better living conditions myself. With that said, this fish has always lived in water that was purchased as 2.5 gallon bottles at the grocery store. It is basically the same as tap water I believe as the label says "Drinking Water from a Municipal Source".

As I started this project, I gave great thought to converting the new tank to our home tap water for convenience (cost was a consideration but a very small one). That is until I tested the Ph of our tap water and that of the bottled water. Our tap water read a solid 8.8 pH on the high range pH test. Possibly even higher since thats as far as the test shows. Next up is the "bottled" drinking water which shows up as 6.4 pH. I opted to continue with the "bottled" water since the pH difference was so extreme and it was a pH the goldfish has been living and thriving in. I also knew I was going to be using the crushed coral as "insurance" so this seemed like an easy way to adjust the pH higher for growing my bacteria rather than find some other not mentioned method for getting it lowered.

Now that I have the cycle going, my pH is at 7.6 and everything seems to be going as planed so onto the question... once I do my final water change, restore my pH and add my fish, will the low pH cause my cycle to crash? I worry about the bacteria thriving in the low pH but with that said, that same water and pH have been working just fine as a cycle in the 5.5 gallon. That tank was never set up as a fishless cycle however so it never went through such a dramatic pH shift as this one will. Will I be ok?

 

[Rivercats]

First off just so you have this information if a tank has a ph of 6.5 or lower biological filtration begins to slow down. When ph hit 6 or lower biological filtration stops and bacteria begins to die.

Now goldfish thrive in hard water (higher gh and kh) with a higher ph. So what you can do is lower the ph in the 10g using your bottled water so it's about 6. 7 and add your goldie. This change in ph isn't enough to bother the fish, then with each water change, use less bottled water each time until eventually your only using tap water. This slow and gradual change will be very easy for the goldie to acclimate to.

As for using crushed coral personally I wouldn't. Goldfish tend to pick up gravel and sift through it spitting out the substrate. I haven't used CC in ages but from what I remember it is not smooth and could hurt the goldies mouth. A better way to use it would be to put some in a media bag and either put it the filter if there is room and if not hang it under the outflow of the filter. This will keep buffers going into the water and it will allow you to add more or less CC as needed.

Also I don't know how large the goldie is now but a 10g is too small. If it's really small it will work maybe for a few months but depending on the type of goldfish (fancy, common, comet, or ?) you will need to have at least a 30g. I finally got the grandkids to have their large fancy GF that I kept at their houses and while they started out small in a couple years most of the 8 were at least 8+ inches. I ended up with 2- 55g tanks with 4 GF in each tank and they needed an upgrade as only 2 of those large GF should have been in a 55g tank.

Also be sure to get a good filter as GF produce copious amounts of waste and produce a lot of ammonia. Also be sure to feed sinking pellets so they don't take in air like they do if feeding from the surface which can cause swim bladder issues.

 

[Jayann]

Thank you so much for the fantastic advice Rivercats! I should have been more specific about the crushed coral. It is indeed in a media bag hanging in front of the filter flow since I stuck part of the 5.5 gallon sponge in the filter. I am using traditional gravel on the bottom. I have indeed been using flakes which the goldie feeds from the surface. Is it typical that he will take to the pellets right away or should I expect to switch to it gradually? As far as the type of goldie he is, I am not quite sure. I tried to google image search each of the types mentioned and really couldn't pinpoint anything that clearly looked like him. I will try and post a picture later to see if that helps any. When my daughter bought him he was quite small. His size seems to have grown proportionate to each tank size up until now. He is clearly growing a bit faster now and the 5.5 gallon makes him seem far too large for it. I surely wish I would have known about how large they can actually get before purchasing the 10 gallon I will likely use it in the meantime (probably no longer than 2 months) now that I know what the desired size would be. The filter I purchased for the 10 gallon is the Marineland Penguin 150 Biowheel. The box seemed to claim it would work for up to 30 gallons. Does this mean when I get to the 30 gallon I will actually want a stronger filter than the 150?

 

[Rivercats]

I am not familiar with that type of HOB filter but when it comes to goldfish IMO 2 filters are always better than one! A 30g would be the minimum size and when the time comes if you can get bigger that is even better as you can keep their water quality better than in a small tank. Goldfish have very long lives if kept in good conditions. We have some comet orando hybrids in the smaller pond that hatched out about 15 years ago. So when given enough water and room they can grow quite large and live quite long.

If you have a single tail goldfish that resembles this body shape and tail Google Image Result for http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_THsU6kqlG2o/TQ_BYbjjOSI/AAAAAAAAAAc/9P8QbrWk7bI/s320/goldfish+comet.JPG you can continue feeding flakes but they do need some veggie in their diet and I fed mine cooked, deshelled peas 2 times a week. Now if the goldie has a body shape and tail like this Google Image Result for you need to get him switched over to pellets if the gravel isn't so large that they will fall in between the grains and the fish won't be able to get to them. What you can do is 1x a day drop a sinking pellet at a time into the tank and see if he catches on it's food. Be sure to give him one normal meal with what he is used to so he does get something to eat. If he's a block head about changing over you might want to get a small can of some type of floating pellet so he learns pellets are food also. He might catch on right away and he might not. You have to be patient. Mine would literally eat anything you put in the tank, fruits (watermelon was the favorite), veggies, duckweed from the pond, and well any other goodie that got dropped in. Their motto was waste not want not... lol!

 

[Jayann]

He is clearly a single tail goldfish and nearly identical to the comet image you linked. I had to go take a good look at him rather than try to identify based on what my memory thinks he looks like lol. Do the comets not have to worry about swim bladder issues? Even though you stated he could remain on flakes, would it be more beneficial to go ahead and switch to pellets? I am going to give the peas a try. I have a feeling he will be all for anything i send floating around or on the surface of the water. He never fails to act like he is starving anytime someone approaches the tank lol.

Thanks again for taking your time to answer my questions and help me out. It is greatly appreciated!

 

[Rivercats]

Comet are a stream lined goldfish and not prone to swim bladder issue the way fancy, short bodied, goldfish are. There are some good pellets out there. I used Hakari brand but my favorite for the goldfish were Pro-Gold.... GoldfishConnection.com - Pro-Gold. I think pellets formulated especially for goldfish are far better than flakes. But that's just me.

Actually goldfish don't have stomachs to store food so feeding them more than once a day is actually a good thing. Split the amount of food you would normally feed in a day and feed half in the morning and half later in the day. When we have baby koi or goldfish we generally feed them 5x a day. Just a small amount.

 

[Jayann]

Was not sure if I should start a new thread or see if I can get some responses here first since there is already a lot of important information in the initial post. I am now fully cycled and am getting ready to do my major water change right before introducing the fish. I will be using the original source of water with the pH of 6.4 but will be cutting in some tap water as well to bring it up to around the 6.7 mark.

The question is, I would like to get this pH raised up quite a bit more than 6.7 as quickly as is safely possible for the sake of keeping the bacteria on track and not having to worry about small drops in pH having a huge impact on them. How quickly can I complete this process? Is it possible that after 24 hours I can raise it up to 6.8 or 7.0 or does the fish need more than a 24 hour period to adjust to the initial change from 6.4 to 6.7? How often should I be cutting in more tap water to get it raised to a more suitable level?

One more note: I have been using crushed coral while I was cycling due to the low pH in the source water. Is this something I can continue with once fish is in? Will it start raising the pH a little too dramatically for fish to get adjusted to? Id like to be able to continue with it only because I had 2 pH crashes during the cycle (nothing below 6.5) and am fairly certain the water is very soft which does not help. I thought at the very least the crushed coral could help with the buffers in the water.

 

[Rivercats]

Quite awhile back there was a woman with really bad water problem and nothing she did like adding crushed coral helped raise her kh and ph. Finally she got Seachem Equilibrium and actually began using it in her WC's, mixing it to the desired level. She kept the CC also but once she began using that she got her ph up and stabilized. If you don't have plants then Seachem makes one for fish only tanks called Replenish.

Goldfish made water acid really fast so this might be a good way for you to keep levels higher. Goldfish like a high ph in the mid to upper 7's. Just raise it slowly over a couple days.

 

[Jayann]

Got the pH to exactly 6.7 and will start working up from there. I imagine by the time I am cutting in larger amounts of tap, it should give the water decent buffers because I believe it is quite hard. Kind of crazy that my choices are either one extreme or the other. Makes me want to consider RO water. Going to pick up a bottle of the Replenish for the next water change. Fish is now in the tank and seems to be doing quite well. One thing I did think was a little weird is how many times he has pooped since moving to the new tank. Now this may be because he is in a more exposed area now and I just never paid close enough attention but I honestly do not think that is it. I have spent plenty of time with and around him as his caretaker for a while now and never saw anything like this in the 5.5 gallon. I do not know if it is pH related, stressed related or maybe even related to the prime since his old tank did not use it? Everything else seems right on track. He is active has a great appetite and is really taking to the new tank exploring everywhere and everything.