Help! Fishless cycle not working

[bsud]

I've fishless cycled for 8 days, Im stuck as what to do because ammonia has been at 4ppm from day one adding pure ammonia to get it to that and not added anymore since. I did add safe start on first day as well, this morning I tested with api master and still no drop in ammonia 0 nitrites 20ppm nitrates. So went ahead done a 25% PWC and tested few hours later and all was same except nitrates which dropped to 5ppm. So should I just do 90% PWC and start over or just do a fish in cycle with another bottle of. TSS? Or should I just wait for the ammonia I have now to drop? I don't want to get to far ahead and have to start over!

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[cfosgate]

No water changes necessary during a fishless cycle. It sometimes takes a few weeks to get the bacteria levels up enough to eat the ammonia. A heater set to 78-82 would help speed up the process a bit. Adding some cycled media to your filter would be the best. Get some from a friend or from your LFS and add it to your filter. No water changes until your ammonia and nitrites read zero for a couple of days. Then do a big water change and you're ready for fish.

 

[bsud]

I only done the water changes because of the conflicting info. some people says no more than 2ppm ammonia and some say it needs to be 5ppm. So I seen more that said 2ppm so I was trying to get it down to that which I had no luck even after I done a 50% total wc.

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[cfosgate]

You're safe with 4 ppm until nitrates show up the back down to 2 ppm until cycled/ready to stock.

 

[bsud]

You're safe with 4 ppm until nitrates show up the back down to 2 ppm until cycled/ready to stock.

see that's where I'm confused, I already have nitrates 20ppm before PWC. I had nitrates before nitrites without a drop in ammonia.

 

[yudhas]

I was in a similar situation before. I bought a used 85 gallon tank with used substrates and filter. I started fish less cycle by adding ammonia to about 4ppm. It took over a week until the ammonia started going down. I'm 2.5 weeks with my cycling right now. Nitrates started appearing before nitrites during my cycle but I stayed on. Now everything is good with my tank. Every time I dosed my ammonia to 4ppm it goes down to 0.25ppm within less than 24 hours. And I've only done one 50% water change.

The only reason why I haven't started stocking it is because I'm making a nice cabinet for it to replace the metal stand. I know that I have to do a 90% water change before stocking it. That's when I'll switch the stands as it won't be as heavy as it is now.

Anyways, just stay on it. I think you'll be fine. Once the nitrates is beyond your testing range just do a 20-25% water change and you'll be fine.

 

[jlk]

see that's where I'm confused, I already have nitrates 20ppm before PWC. I had nitrates before nitrites without a drop in ammonia.

If you had a readable nitrate level prior to the wc, it was likely because you added nitrates from the bottled bacteria product. However, if your ammonia level did not drop after a 50% wc, you may have ammonia in your tap water or the original amount of ammonia was much higher than you realized.

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? What does your tank temp and ph read? How much ammonia did you initially add? What type of water conditioner are you using?

Fishless cycling does require patience when starting from scratch. It can take two to four weeks for initial ammonia drops. Unfortunately, bottled bacteria products can skew the results one may expect to see. As mentioned, adding cycled media is the quickest way to speed up a cycle. Some more information will help to get you on the right track!

 

[bsud]

If you had a readable nitrate level prior to the wc, it was likely because you added nitrates from the bottled bacteria product. However, if your ammonia level did not drop after a 50% wc, you may have ammonia in your tap water or the original amount of ammonia was much higher than you realized.

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? What does your tank temp and ph read? How much ammonia did you initially add? What type of water conditioner are you using?

Fishless cycling does require patience when starting from scratch. It can take two to four weeks for initial ammonia drops. Unfortunately, bottled bacteria products can skew the results one may expect to see. As mentioned, adding cycled media is the quickest way to speed up a cycle. Some more information will help to get you on the right track!

tap water tested .25ppm ammonia, 0/0 nitrite nitrates. The water temp is 84 Ph is 7.4. I'm also using the top fin brand of conditioner. When I first started I used 30 drops pure ammonia and haven't added any since, the color was not all that dark looked about right to me at 4ppm. Also I'm reading that 4ppm could have killed the tss, so I've just done another PWC to see if I can get ammonia on down, but now 30 min later it is still around maybe 3ppm

 

[jlk]

Thanks! Ok, if you have ammonia in your tap then you most likely have chloramines rather than chlorine in your tap water. This is important to know whether fishless cycling or for future fish. I will need to double check but I believe the Top Fin conditioner is just plain sodium thiosulfate with EDTA to chelate out metals. There may be a slime coat additive such as aloe or glycerin. The issue is plain sodium thiosulfate at regular doses is not really sufficient to handle chloramines (chlorine bound to ammonia for stability) and this factor alone is enough to prevent a cycle from ever starting.

So, for now, I would double dose this product until you are able to purchase a conditioner with a better formulation to handle chloramines (Prime is a great one). Prime will also give the benefit in the future of temporarily binding ammonia that is freed when the chlorine-ammonia bond is broken so it is not harmful to your fish. Amquel Plus also works in a similar fashion but its intended to be used in conjunction with Nova Aqua for the full benefits (which can get quite pricey in the long haul).

Is your ph reading the same using both the high and standard ph tests?

Aside from this, have some patience and consider looking into your options for obtaining some cycled media (online, lfs, friends, etc) to help jumpstart your cycle. Please ask any questions!

 

[bsud]

Thank you! I haven't done a high Ph test in a few days so not sure on that. So I need to go ahead and. put 20 more drops of the top fin conditioner in my tank?

 

[jlk]

Whatever the suggested dose is, double it (for your tank size, not what you have changed in water amounts). You can honestly even triple it without any negative effects just to be on the safe side that the chloramine will be neutralized.

The high ph test is really only for comparison to your regular ph test as a result of 7.4 is borderline between the two tests. A 'blue' result on the standard test just indicates that your ph is any number higher than 7.2. The high range test will help to quantify this so you will be aware in the event your ph starts to change. Hope this helps a bit!

 

[bsud]

Whatever the suggested dose is, double it (for your tank size, not what you have changed in water amounts). You can honestly even triple it without any negative effects just to be on the safe side that the chloramine will be neutralized.

The high ph test is really only for comparison to your regular ph test as a result of 7.4 is borderline between the two tests. A 'blue' result on the standard test just indicates that your ph is any number higher than 7.2. The high range test will help to quantify this so you will be aware in the event your ph starts to change. Hope this helps a bit!

Yes it helps, Also once I get the ammonia down a little lower would it be safe to dump a bottle of TSS in it again to kick start bacteria in case the other bottle I first put in was killed off?

 

[jlk]

Bottled bacteria products are very hit or miss and can cause some very odd and/or negative results during a fishless cycle. Some people swear by them while many others just feel the effects in their wallet. Your more than welcome to try another bottle but just don't expect an instantly cycled tank.

 

[bsud]

Bottled bacteria products are very hit or miss and can cause some very odd and/or negative results during a fishless cycle. Some people swear by them while many others just feel the effects in their wallet. Your more than welcome to try another bottle but just don't expect an instantly cycled tank.

Oh I'm not looking for instantly cycled cause I know that's not gonna happen, I just won't to see results in order and not like I'm seeing now where I had nitrates before nitrites and never seeing the ammonia level going down.

 

[Mebbid]

Keep in mind that a fishless cycle can take over a month to finish. You are well withing the realm of normal cycling time.

 

[bsud]

OK here is where I'm at, I did one more big WC and I now have my ammonia down to 1.5-2ppm. Now should I just. put a bottle of bacteria starter in after a day or two and then just wait and test everyday for nitrites to show up? Im not sure I can get any media. So I need something to kick start the bacteria.

 

[jlk]

Yep, just test and have some patience!!! As I mentioned earlier, don't expect "by the book" results either because bottled bacteria additives can skew the progression you would expect to see under normal conditions. You will likely have nitrate immediately as the result of adding it- you will need to wait for the ammonia to start to start dropping before the nitrate results will have any validity and start to increase.

 

[bsud]

Yep, just test and have some patience!!! As I mentioned earlier, don't expect "by the book" results either because bottled bacteria additives can skew the progression you would expect to see under normal conditions. You will likely have nitrate immediately as the result of adding it- you will need to wait for the ammonia to start to start dropping before the nitrate results will have any validity and start to increase.

OK thanks! So that means even if I see nitrates first I will still see the nitrites and then the ammonia will start dropping and once it hits .25 or less then I just dose ammonia back up to around 1ppm?

 

[jlk]

You will likely be adding nitrates from the bottle so disregard an immediate nitrate reading as a sign of cycling. You want to watch for ammonia to start to drop. You may not see nitrite at all but if your ammonia is starting to drop, you may start to see steady increases in nitrates. Sometimes, ammonia will start to drop and you will not see an increase in anything or you may see nitrate increase then disappear or ammonia may stop dropping out of the blue. Bottled products can skew any 'expected' progression so keep this in mind. Just keep an eye on your ph for changes as things start to ramp up to catch a possible stall before it occurs.

 

[bsud]

Also I want to ask, I was gonna get some live plants this weekend. Would that help the cycle as well if I go ahead and plant them?