Issues with pH

[larochem595]

Hi Everyone,

I'm having issues maintaining the pH in my tank, it keeps dropping on me.
I have a 10 g tank with now two platies. I lost one yesterday. My KH level is actually high (close to 300 ppm) so this is a mystery to me.

I had been using Seachem Replenish to maintain the GH in my tank. My water source is filtered and on the soft side. Does Replenish tend to drop the pH in the tank? It seems like that might be happening, although I would tend to think that using a product that increases GH would also support a higher pH.

Any thoughts or comments would be helpful.
Thanks!
Michelle

 

[Coyne]

While they are sort of similar, KH and GH aren't the same thing. KH impacts the pH much more than GH.
I'm not familiar with the product you mentioned. Does it raise the KH as well?

You never mentioned what the pH actually was. It would also be good to know the starting pH of the tap water as well as what it is after it's been aerating in a separate container for a day. This will let us know how much the pH is changing in a controlled setting. Then we can compare that to what you have in the aquarium and go from there.


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[Delapool]

Looks like raises gh only according to website.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Replenish.html

I was wondering how you filter the water as well and any kh tests done on that before adding to tank?

Also if any driftwood or peat in tank, pwc schedule and how old tank is.

 

[larochem595]

Hello,
Thanks for your replies!

According to the label and website it supposedly only raises GH. The pH is currently hovering around 6.8-6.5 ish, I've been checking it just about daily.
I like your idea of aerating the water for a few days before checking the pH. Every time I have tested the pH of my tap water source, I have always checked it straight out of the faucet. Does pH tend to increase or decrease after its been aged?

The KH of my tap water is about 80 ppm without anything done to it. As for how it gets filtered, I am not exactly sure. No driftwood or peat. I usually change about 1/3 of the tank water weekly. The tank is about 6 months old. Filtration on my tank is good. Its a 20 g internal filter with activated carbon.

Also, just fyi, even though Seachem claims that Replenish doesn't affect pH, I did try dissolving an mL of the Replenish in my test tube with tank water and it came out pretty acidic. I'm thinking that may be what's happening.


Thanks!
Michelle

 

[Coyne]

In my experience, the pH lowers after its been sitting and aerating. The exposure to carbon dioxide should make it more acidic. How much will depend on how much buffering capacity is in the water (ie KH).

For example, my tap water has a high pH of 8.4 to 8.6 along with a very high KH (I forget how high, but its way up there). After sitting in a bucket and aerating for a day, it drops to 8.2ish. Either way, not much of a change.

Now, after running it through my RO/DI unit, it has a pH of 7 and 0dKH. After sitting for a day it'll drop down to 6.0 or a little lower.
Lower KH means easier/bigger changes to pH.

 

[larochem595]

In my experience, the pH lowers after its been sitting and aerating. The exposure to carbon dioxide should make it more acidic. How much will depend on how much buffering capacity is in the water (ie KH).

For example, my tap water has a high pH of 8.4 to 8.6 along with a very high KH (I forget how high, but its way up there). After sitting in a bucket and aerating for a day, it drops to 8.2ish. Either way, not much of a change.

Now, after running it through my RO/DI unit, it has a pH of 7 and 0dKH. After sitting for a day it'll drop down to 6.0 or a little lower.
Lower KH means easier/bigger changes to pH.

Interesting.... thanks! I have some water that's been aging a few days. I will check it out.

 

[Rpeinhardt]

I'd buffer with crushed coral.

Add it to your filter and fuggedabout it.

 

[larochem595]

I'd buffer with crushed coral.

Add it to your filter and fuggedabout it.

Sounds like a good idea. I could probably just throw some in with my filter. How do you know how much to add? Just add a little and wait for it to reach the desired level?

Thanks!

 

[Rpeinhardt]

I just fill a filter sock (which measures 3 x 8 I think) about a third or so full and drop it in my sump.

With sump, my tank is about 25 gallons to give you an idea.

 

[trennamw]

6.5-6.8 is fine if it's stably within that range.

I'm reading two different values for your KH above.

Can you clarify the gh and KH of your tap and tank?

Why are you adding the replenish?

What is the ph of your tap and tank?

What "swings" are you seeing?

Adding anything else?


Sent from my iPhone with three hands tied behind my back.

 

[larochem595]

6.5-6.8 is fine if it's stably within that range.

I'm reading two different values for your KH above.

Can you clarify the gh and KH of your tap and tank?

Why are you adding the replenish?

What is the ph of your tap and tank?

What "swings" are you seeing?

Adding anything else?


Sent from my iPhone with three hands tied behind my back.

So...I attempted to use Proper pH 7.5 to try to bring up the pH a bit. I have since stopped using it after realizing that it is not good for a planted aquarium. And also learning that phosphate buffers aren't a good choice.

I am adding the replenish to raise my GH a bit. My water source is filtered with a low GH.

I had been using strips to measure my GH and KH and I didn't trust those things so I got an API GH/KH test kit. As of yesterday, my GH is 12 dH and my KH is 8 dH.


Thanks,
Michelle

 

[trennamw]

I struggled with all this a lot too, my tap water reads less than 1 GH and KH.

The best advice I got was stop chasing perfect and opt for stable.

I supplement GH up to 4-5 for the sake of the plants (was 3 for fish only) and KH to 3-4. One tank stabilizes at about 7 and another at about 6.5 (no idea why they are different) and after a year everyone is happy and healthy.

Platies aren't sensitive enough to need a very specific pH.

Don't use pH adjusters. Not just because of the phosphates but because they don't deliver stable pH. KH is what stabilizes ph. Then you don't keep adding stuff and inflicting osmotic stress by changing how much stuff is in the water (which some research suggests is more important than pH).

Hope that helps! I lost several bettas trying to deal with GH/KH/ph and like I said it's now been a year with everyone happy.

I like seachem renew, I don't know how it differs from replenish.


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[ScotJudd]

I agree that adjusting tap water Kh and Gh is a pain, especially if too high. But my tap had undetectable Kh and Gh and Ph kept falling. I now keep both at 6deg and Ph is steady as a rock at 7.0.
I use Bicarb of soda to adjust Kh and Equilibrium to adjust Gh, which also has other trace minerals for plant health.


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[larochem595]

I struggled with all this a lot too, my tap water reads less than 1 GH and KH.

The best advice I got was stop chasing perfect and opt for stable.

I supplement GH up to 4-5 for the sake of the plants (was 3 for fish only) and KH to 3-4. One tank stabilizes at about 7 and another at about 6.5 (no idea why they are different) and after a year everyone is happy and healthy.

Platies aren't sensitive enough to need a very specific pH.

Don't use pH adjusters. Not just because of the phosphates but because they don't deliver stable pH. KH is what stabilizes ph. Then you don't keep adding stuff and inflicting osmotic stress by changing how much stuff is in the water (which some research suggests is more important than pH).

Hope that helps! I lost several bettas trying to deal with GH/KH/ph and like I said it's now been a year with everyone happy.

I like seachem renew, I don't know how it differs from replenish.


Sent from my iPhone with three hands tied behind my back.

Trennamw,
What do you use to raise your KH? How would I raise KH?

A couple of updates:

I discovered today that the reason my pH has fallen in my tank is because the pH of my water source has fallen... Checked my water today prior to putting it in my tank and it tested at a 6.8. I had not rechecked my water source in a few months and hadn't taken into account that my source's pH might have changed...

My GH was 4 and KH was 3 before I did anything to it.

Replenish contains trace minerals to raise GH supposedly without changing pH or KH. It is basically the liquid form of Equilibrium.

Thanks for the help, much appreciated!
Michelle

 

[larochem595]

I agree that adjusting tap water Kh and Gh is a pain, especially if too high. But my tap had undetectable Kh and Gh and Ph kept falling. I now keep both at 6deg and Ph is steady as a rock at 7.0.
I use Bicarb of soda to adjust Kh and Equilibrium to adjust Gh, which also has other trace minerals for plant health.


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Hi Scot,

I read somewhere that bicarbonate of soda isn't ideal to use in some situations. If I understand the science correctly, sodium bicarbonate dissociates into sodium and bicarbonate. Since my aquarium is planted, and some freshwater plants don't like sodium, I will probably look for something else to adjust KH.

I wish my LFS carried equilibrium....It doesn't make much sense to order it online when I will have to pay as much shipping as I do for the product itself. They do carry Replenish, which is like the liquid form of equilibrium, as far as I can tell.


Thanks,
Michelle

 

[trennamw]

Not to repeat myself too much, but I use API cichlid buffer for KH and seachem equilibrium for GH. I read in my favorite fish book to never use pH Adjusters or acid/alkaline buffers ... To never really add anything except dechlorinator and "buffered cichlid salts" for extremely soft water.

I switched from cichlid salts to equilibrium because it has more varied micronutrients.

But I'll stick with my recommendation that you shouldn't necessarily supplement at all.

And don't sweat that slight ph shift.

Our LFS, one of the biggest frshwater fish stores in the country, advises not to use the API ph test. They instead sell one for hydroponics that doesn't tell you the ph very specifically. Just whole numbers except 7.5. They use that in their own store even (and they have many cichlids and discus and reportedly sensitive fish). They say being more specific just leads to unnecessary freaking out.

I was incredibly skeptical about all that advice but it's now been a year since I've had any issues with my tanks. Fish are healthy, even the sensitive Otos, no algae, totally stable pH (it's below 7 but stable) ... Before that I lost a lot of fish over 6 months chasing PH and hardness problems.


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[larochem595]

Not to repeat myself too much, but I use API cichlid buffer for KH and seachem equilibrium for GH. I read in my favorite fish book to never use pH Adjusters or acid/alkaline buffers ... To never really add anything except dechlorinator and "buffered cichlid salts" for extremely soft water.

I switched from cichlid salts to equilibrium because it has more varied micronutrients.

But I'll stick with my recommendation that you shouldn't necessarily supplement at all.

And don't sweat that slight ph shift.

Our LFS, one of the biggest frshwater fish stores in the country, advises not to use the API ph test. They instead sell one for hydroponics that doesn't tell you the ph very specifically. Just whole numbers except 7.5. They use that in their own store even (and they have many cichlids and discus and reportedly sensitive fish). They say being more specific just leads to unnecessary freaking out.

I was incredibly skeptical about all that advice but it's now been a year since I've had any issues with my tanks. Fish are healthy, even the sensitive Otos, no algae, totally stable pH (it's below 7 but stable) ... Before that I lost a lot of fish over 6 months chasing PH and hardness problems.


Sent from my iPhone with three hands tied behind my back.

Unnecessary freaking out? That sounds like me =)
I think I finally have things nice and stable in my tank-I've been monitoring my water parameters a couple times a week.
I've been using Seachem Replenish for the GH--its essentially a liquid form of Equilibrium. Thats what my LFS carries.

I have since changed what I am using for KH.
I'm now using a proportionately correct combo of Seachem alkaline and acid buffer.

Things seem to be going well--the fish are active. The pH is a stable 6.8 (ish). The KH is around 8 and the GH is a steady 12.

I think these numbers are ok ??? Things are at least stable.

Thanks for the help,
Micheelle

 

[trennamw]

Oh yes you again Michele ...

I think the numbers are good or maybe high for GH and KH. And the ph oddly low given the KH but that's not the area I understand best.

Using acid and alkaline buffer together is, even according to seachem, the less stable approach. I was reading this yesterday. Even they suggest something like cichlid buffer to raise KH and keep ph stable.

Your GH supplement sounds like a good choice but you may be using too much. As I recall you have livebearers? The package insert on the GH test (also available on APIs website) will tell you the range for them. 3-4 is the lowest for most fish I don't know what the highest is, just that livebearers like it higher than egg layers and if you're supplementing anyway ...

For KH I still recommend just using API buffer Max. You could just start using it at future water changes and it will transition over. It's simpler, more stable, and cheaper.

Unless the ph does stay really stable from tap to tank to water change, without adding more buffers to the tank.


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[trennamw]

I have, btw, used the seachem acid and alkaline buffer combo ... One step on my road to stability. I found it to be too unstable. But my tap water has a high ph with no KH or GH.


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[coralbandit]

I had been using strips to measure my GH and KH and I didn't trust those things so I got an API GH/KH test kit. As of yesterday, my GH is 12 dH and my KH is 8 dH.


Thanks,
Michelle

Stop doing anything to your water besides "aerating" it for 24 hours before using it so the pH can settle.
Without a specific reason , there is no reason to adjust your water ,and if so Ph is not the thing.
Your gh and kh are fine for most things and certainly for your platy.
They are more important then pH and as mentioned Kh is what stabilizes pH.
Seachem makes great products.
Stay away from all that are meant to adjust your water!
Your fish will appreciate the water being the same more then you struggling to make it perfect.