larger tanks

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

ajwetton

Aquarium Advice Activist
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
140
Location
St. Louis MO
Ive had 3 tanks that have all been smaller 10-20g range. Im wanting to go big to a 55 or 75g tank, its the biggest I can fit in my current place. Are HOB filters still ok at this size or do o need to go to a canister type filter?
 
Really... in my opinion... Theres nothing that caaant work. Depends on your plan with the tank (fish, decor, water type, substrate, lighting, plants, and so on) Lets see if we cant get you going on a plan for this tank! I know this isnt answering your question... yet... but lets get a visual on this tank first. Begin with water, salt or fresh? Fish are most important so thats next. What fish do you want?
 
Large Tank Filtration

Ive had 3 tanks that have all been smaller 10-20g range. Im wanting to go big to a 55 or 75g tank, its the biggest I can fit in my current place. Are HOB filters still ok at this size or do o need to go to a canister type filter?

Hello aj...

HOBs are fine for larger tanks. They're less expensive and easier to maintain than canister filters. I keep several 55 G tanks and use a couple of Hagen AC50s to filter them. If you're a good water changer, you don't need expensive, high end filtration.

B
 
Yeah I agree. I have a 55g with 2 penguin 350s and they do a good job keeping the water clear.
 
Agreed HOB is much cheaper and easier to maintain. I have a 75 with 2 emperor 400s and they do a great job. Any ideas of what you want to keep in a large tank yet?
 
Personally I prefer canister filters as you have tons more room for various types of media. I clean my canisters every 4 weeks and they work great. I've been using canisters on any tank over 20g since the 80's. I use all Fluval 406's right now and have had excellent results with them for that many years.
 
Tank Filtration

I understand canister filters work well and are a good choice if you have a large tank. But, I have a problem with the cost. They're easily twice that of an HOB, but will they do twice the job? You can easily clean the HOB filter and replace the media in roughly 15 minutes with a Hagen product. I don't believe you can do that with a canister model.

If you're a water change fanatic like me, then expensive filtration isn't necessary. Canister or HOB, they're both just turning over water that's already pure.

B
 
Actually canisters have much more internal media space and say on a 55g tank a Fluval 406 which I use would need 2 or 3 HOB's depending on the brand to have the same internal media space. They do not clog nearly as fast as HOB's and it takes me maybe 30 minutes tops if that to flip it off, open, rinse the media, add new floss, close it up, and clip it on once every 4 weeks. So it's not the big deal you seem to think it is.

I also do 50% WC's on all my tanks even the 220g weekly and still use canisters. As for price you can usually find them cheap on ebay PLUS there are some canister filters that aren't very expensive at all. It boils down to what a person wants to use for doing the job they want.

Even with doing 50% WC's water is never completely pure and a lot depends on the bio-load of the tank, planted or not, and many other factors so the filters don't just turn over water that is already pure, they provide biological, and mechanical filtration which greatly is responsible for keeping water clear of floating detris, and can provide chemical filtration if it's wanted. Your oversimplifying what filtration is all about.
 
Tank Fitration

Hello Rcats...

You have more experience with water keeping than I, so will defer to your explanation. However, the filtration system can be very simple. I have several heavily stocked and well planted tanks and use a couple of HOBs to filter them. With large, weekly water changes, the HOBs do the same job as a canister. As you know, the beneficial bacteria grows on all surfaces inside the tank. If you include several pieces of driftwood and many pieces of lava rock, you have a wealth of backup bacteria.

The large, weekly water changes, even in a tank with a heavy bioload would be enough to dilute any forms of nitrogen left in the tank to the point they wouldn't harm the fish.

B
 
The bulk of all Nitrobactor and Nitrosomonas are located in filters because of the constant supply of oxygen and food brought to them. If you were to remove the filter with it's bio-media capacity and rely strictly on bacteria that is on gravel and tank objects you would struggle to keep ammonia and nitrites down even in a mature tank unless you had a very small bio-load of tank stock. Even with 50% WC's. The higher the bio-load in a tank the more bio-media is needed and in a filter where it can function at it optimum capacity.

Filters are needed for much more than biological filtration. In a high bio-load tank, even one heavily planted, there would be a build up a of detris, etc., from both plants and fish that even a 50% weekly WC couldn't remove. I'm talking about planted tanks with substrates and not bare bottom tanks with plants in pots.

My 220g is 100% planted with mostly fast growing stem plants. It has a heavy bio-load of fish IMO and I have to feed generously due to the sheer amount of fish but more so because of the amount of bottom feeders and algae based eaters of various species. I use 4 Fluval 406 canisters on that tank that are cleaned every 4 weeks. When I clean them the vast amount of sponges and the poly fill I use in them are very dirty. If I don't clean them on a 4 week schedule nitrates build up in the tank regardless of my weekly 50% WC's. If I didn't have those filters removing all the detris, etc., from the tank it would all remain in the water and substrate and my water would be anything but pristine over time. Even large weekly WC's wouldn't be enough. It might work if there were very few fish in the tank and feeding was light but even then I have my doubts. Each tank is unique and varies in so many ways you can't make one general "this works for all tanks" philosophy.

I have 2- 55g tanks, one contains all tiny nano fish, the other contains 3- 8+ inch fancy goldfish. Each tank as a Fluval 406 canister but the GF tank has 2. Both tanks get 50% WC weekly yet the GF canisters need cleaning every 2 weeks and sometimes need 2 50% WC's weekly due to the copious amounts of waste and ammonia they produce. In this instance I probably could run the nano fish 55g with a large HOB but the GF 55g needs every bit of the filtration, both biological and mechanical that 2 canisters provide. So it's clear "The large, weekly water changes, even in a tank with a heavy bioload would be enough to dilute any forms of nitrogen left in the tank to the point they wouldn't harm the fish." would not be correct. You have to look at each individual tank, stock, and set up to determine what type and amount of filtration would be needed along with weekly WC's to keep water at it's best.
 
Tank Filtration

Hello again Rcats...

That's quite an explanation. Sorry, but I just had time to skim it. Here's my take: The water changes are the filtration. If I change enough water often enough, I can eliminate the filter system entirely. Wish I was that fanatical, but I'm not. I flush large amounts of pure, treated tap water through the tank every week removing most of the dissolved wastes.

Since everything I put into the tank eventually dissolves, I just have to remove the old water. The wastes left after the water change are diluted in all the new, pure water, so there's no harm to the fish. The bacteria living in the filter media and all the driftwood and porous lava rock and to an extent, all the plants, both land and aquatic in the tank, use the bulk of the nitrogen that's left in the tank after the water change.

Because of the gallons and gallons of new water going into the tank weekly flushing out all the toxins and all the plants and bacteria using the little that's left, there's no time for wastes to build to a toxic level. The water chemistry is always stable and healthy for all the inhabitants.

B
 
Filters are filters, the basic job that an air driven sponge filter does is essentially the same as the new fluval g series filter. It's a matter of preference. I run two ac 110s on my 125 and love the job they do. Does a canister have do a little bit of a better job? Sure so much so that other filters shouldn't be considered? Absolutely not
 
Where it only that simple no one would need filters BBrad.

But the fact is regardless of 50% weekly WC's toxin and nutrient levels will continue to build up, not as much when larger WC are done weekly but still they build up without some form of mechanical filtration that removes excess detris from the water before it can breakdown contributing to nutrient levels.

You are trying to make a one size fits all statement. Now it is "if I change enough water often enough" from doing a 50% week WC. Sure if I change large amounts of water 2 or 3 times a week which I've know some people to do then mechanical filtration really does become secondary to WC's. But many people don't even do 50% WC's weekly so filtration becomes more important.

Not all tanks are planted which makes a difference. Heck even the types of plants used makes a difference. It all boils down to the individual tank since all tanks are vastly different. This thread isn't about are filters needed but about the type of filter, HOB or canister and would be work in a larger tank. Which is simply a matter of opinion.

Sorry OP for getting off track here.
 
Hmm interesting. So with me doing 50% water changes twice a week and my tank is planted, I guess some would consider this overkill. I guess everyone has their own opinions. I just like clean healthy tank.
 
Hmm interesting. So with me doing 50% water changes twice a week and my tank is planted, I guess some would consider this overkill. I guess everyone has their own opinions. I just like clean healthy tank.

It's not overkill if it works for you! The only thing you have to watch in planted tanks with doing a lot of weekly WC's is you can drop your nutrient levels too low depending on the type of plants you have, along with light levels, CO2, and ferts used.
 
I got that under control now. It was a learning curve at the beginning though. It don't take much to throw it out of wack I found out.
 
I got that under control now. It was a learning curve at the beginning though. It don't take much to throw it out of wack I found out.

You right it takes very little to throw a planted tank out of balance. Anytime you change one small thing it can upset the proverbial apple cart!
 
Hi rcats.

Apologies in advance to original poster for going off track again but I gather your question has been answered.

I'm curious to know whether you clean the substrate your 100% planted tank. I know that dirty gravel contributes to nitrates along with dirty filter but I have just upgraded to 40 gal which I consider heavily planted. Surely you can't pull up every plant to vac the gravel under it or do you just work round them?

Also I have a fluval 205 which I know I the bare minimum for a 40 gal (will upgrade) but having no experience with these before I was wondering which parts you are supposed to clean. I saw 2 sponges and a bag of ceramic rings. Should there be anything else inside? I haven't had a proper look yet. I'm guessing it'll need a rinse as the guy I bought it off didn't look the tidiest of people.

I usually know when to clean my filter because nitrates take less time to build up.
 
Ok so im not sure of fish of fish stock, I know it's gonna be a heavily planted tank and ill stsrt in that before I stsrt on fish due to it needing to cycle. Thinking sand substrate. Juey not sure of stock. I know 1 male betta ie going in ther3 because I have to break down his tqnl to set up the 55g. So ill have to consider stock around him unless something changes. I kinda wanted to do cichlids but not with th3 betta.
 
Hi rcats.

Apologies in advance to original poster for going off track again but I gather your question has been answered.

I'm curious to know whether you clean the substrate your 100% planted tank. I know that dirty gravel contributes to nitrates along with dirty filter but I have just upgraded to 40 gal which I consider heavily planted. Surely you can't pull up every plant to vac the gravel under it or do you just work round them?

Also I have a fluval 205 which I know I the bare minimum for a 40 gal (will upgrade) but having no experience with these before I was wondering which parts you are supposed to clean. I saw 2 sponges and a bag of ceramic rings. Should there be anything else inside? I haven't had a proper look yet. I'm guessing it'll need a rinse as the guy I bought it off didn't look the tidiest of people.

I usually know when to clean my filter because nitrates take less time to build up.

Honestly I never gravel vac any of my planted tanks. I've run one up to 5 years without ever doing it. Mostly I contribute it to a lot of mechanical filtration which pulls so much out of the water keeping it from settling in the substrate. I also have Malaysian Trumpet Snails which many hate but I feel helps keep the substrate cleaner and aerated to a point. The 220g is now about 2 years old and never had a vac. It also runs at about 10ppm nitrates weekly even with a lot of fish and heavy feeding. I do a 50% WC weekly and be sure to keep my canistered cleaned every 4 weeks. Sometimes if I do a very heavy rescape and make a big mess I'll clean the canisters all a few days apart to remove all the dirt and detris.

I don't know how many baskets there are in the smaller Fluval canister but in my 406's I have 4 sponges in the stand up piece, then there are 4 baskets in mine. The bottom basket has a Fluval pre-sponge that is black and came with mine, then the next 2 baskets I use plain cheap 100% Polyfill that you can get at Walmart, Target, or any craft store. I pack the Polyfill in wet so it condenses better. If I want to use Purgen or Carbon for any reason I would then do one basket of Polyfill and the next basket up with the chemical media. The top basket I use the ceramic tubes as bio-media.

I pull the canisters off every 4 weeks and rinse all the sponges under water till they rinse clean. If you allow detris to build up in them your nitrates will start rising after a few weeks. I throw away the polyfill and add new. I never mess with the biomedia and keep it away from the tap water which will kill the BB.

Honestly I get new sponges and bio-media. If I had to use the old stuff personally I'd soak it 24 hours in 1 part plain bleach to 10 parts water. Then rinse the heck out of it and finally soak it a couple days in heavy declorinated water, preferably using Prime.
 
Back
Top Bottom